A Beginners Guide To Paid Online Advertising, A Road Map For Success

The Business of Business Podcast

A Beginners Guide To Paid Online Advertising, A Road Map For Success Featuring Geoff Crain

Have you ever wondered where to start your digital advertising journey? There are so many options for messaging and channels you must consider. Getting started is the hardest part. Once you are out there, continue to tweak and dial in your messaging for optimal success.

About Geoff

Geoff is the Digital Director at Kingstar Media, one of North America’s top digital marketing/video production agencies. He has been in the digital industry for 15 years. He started on the brand side buying digital media for Johnson & Johnson and Coca Cola. He moved into the performance marketing space in 2013 where he worked for 6 years buying high volume digital media on a CPA/CPI/CPL for a variety of clients. In 2019, he joined Kingstar Media. In total, Geoff has purchased over $200M worth of digital media.

Clients have include Spotify, Google, Trivago, Match, Navage, Simply Fit Board and Copper Chef.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoff-crain-39958726/

https://twitter.com/KingstarDM

www.kingstarmedia.com

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

Full Transcript Below

A Beginners Guide To Paid Online Advertising, A Road Map For Success Featuring Geoff Crain

Tue, 7/13 7:13PM • 29:47

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

work, product, people, buyer, buying, ads, videos, digital media, resonate, advertising, roi, google, geoff, service, test, understand, marketing, point, sale, niches

SPEAKERS

Geoff, Roy Barker

Roy Barker 00:05

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course we are the podcast that brings you a wide variety of guests, I can talk about a diverse set of topics. Hopefully we could point out something that you know, maybe you haven't heard of before. Or secondly, if you're struggling something keeping you up at night, we can provide you a great resource to help you with that. Today we have an awesome guest with us, Geoff Crain, he is the digital director at Kingstar. Media, one of North America's top digital marketing, video production agencies. He has been in the digital industry for 15 years he started on the brand side buying digital media for Johnson and Johnson and Coca Cola. He moved into the performance marketing space in 2013, where he worked for 16 years buying high volume digital media, on a CPA slash CPS last CPO for a variety of clients in 2019, he joined Kingstar Media. In total, Geoff has purchased over 200 million worth of digital media. Geoff, thanks for taking time out of your day and being on our show. We certainly appreciate it.

Geoff 01:16

Thanks for having me. I was excited looking forward to speak with you.

Roy Barker 01:19

Ya know, it's been a long time coming. So I'm excited to get you on here as well. Before we get jump into this, if you don't mind, can you give us a little bit of your background? You know, what is something digital media, something that you've always wanted to do? Or kind of how you found yourself in the space now?

Geoff 01:39

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I come from kind of a family that was in advertising. My father, he's has his own ad agency, he was always kind of in that production, commercial producing side, a great kind of director in that respect. And I found myself wanting to get into some sort of advertising or marketing out of university, or work for a big global agency, I was lucky enough to get on a team there, they thought that it would have a kind of a good fit on the digital side. Again, working kind of on Johnson Johnson, Coca Cola, buying digital media for them. And now fast forward about 12 years, I'm still in space, still loving it. I think my favorite thing is that it's evolving almost on a daily. It's always something new and keeps you engaged and excited.

Roy Barker 02:22

Yeah, I mean, lucky for you, there's guys like me that, you know, I can't even keep up with a scorecard. If I figured something out today. I'd already be outdated by the time I wake up in the morning. Yeah, and so now you focus mainly on the performances, I think the way you put it the performance side, which is purchasing ads or purchasing things that will produce results, correct?

Geoff 02:48

Yeah. So that's kind of where we separate ourselves, and my kind of skill set specifically. I mean, we're not your traditional brand buyer, you're not going to buy for kind of the Fords or the gms of the world where they're just looking for impressions and awareness, we're actually working with companies that are looking to drive revenue at a certain cost goal. So let's say you come to me with a product that's $100. And you say, Geoff, based on my cost of goods, I can afford to pay $30 to acquire a customer on digital media, I go out and try to acquire that sale with $30 worth of digital media. And then we try to scale it 1000s 10s of 1000s 100 1000s or millions of times, we kind of pride ourselves and our clients can be successful. And we can generate them profit, but they'll reinvest it with us. And it's kind of a both of us work. Both of us win. And we can see all together.

Roy Barker 03:35

Yeah. So what I guess what platforms does this encompasses this more? It may be a combination, but like, again, I'm coming from a very limited knowledge base. But you know, you think about the the Google links or click throughs. You know, like when you do a Google search, somebody shows up at the very top, it's usually paid. But then you have the display ads or display videos. Do y'all encompass all of these are the focus in one, one area or the other?

Geoff 04:08

Yeah, exactly. So I think certain digital platforms or digital ad networks are better suited for this performance around marketing. Google definitely being one, and then Facebook and Instagram being the second. They're both platforms that have tracking that setup. So you know, every person that clicks if it turned into a sale, or if it didn't, that allows you to kind of let's say it's a keyword bidding strategy where you have 100 different keywords, how are we going to know which one to cut or which ones to increase the budget on? Well, Google layers in that kind of transactional data series able to see at a keyword level which were exactly drove a sale and you're able to make a decision on whether to continue to run it and if it's profitable for you that hopefully scale it and spend more money.

Roy Barker 04:53

Okay, so if I was to come to you and just say, Look, I'm you know, we'll take your instance that you said I've got product does sell for $100 product or service. I've got $30 per person, you know, kind of where do we go from there? Is there input questions that I need to answer to help you get started?

Geoff 05:14

Yeah, absolutely. So first thing, like you said, understanding kind of your profitability metrics is the most important feature that will speak to you about how you want to position your product, why is it unique? What are the unique selling propositions, what makes it different than other kinds of products or services in that category, then we formulate creative ideas, how we're going to create a video how we're going to create the images to kind of display that positioning, display, why it's such a good product, and then we'll put it into play and ever put those ads on Facebook, on Instagram and on Google, and kind of let the consumers decide if it's worth them to buy. And kind of like the the proof is in the pudding. If the if the clicks are there, if it's driving sales, it's working. If not, we try to iterate marketing is like I kind of equated to a baseball average 250 or 250, or 300 is a great average, you're going to be billions dollars in the MLB marketing's the same, you're going to swing and miss so many times out of 10 ideas, a lot of them are gonna fail true there may be successful and iterate and build from there.

Roy Barker 06:17

Okay. Yeah. And so, you know, one thing we try to preach, especially in the marketing space is patience. And, you know, this is a little bit different, because I think it will outlast you, this is a little different because of this paid portion, the paid for performance. And so maybe y'all expect a little bit more upfront, but we always talk about patients that, you know, if you throw something out there today, and you get big wins off of it tomorrow, the next day, a lot of times, you're lucky, it takes time for people to even if it's a good, a good ad, it just takes time for it to resonate with people unless you just hit hit the rat place where, you know, it's like, oh, my gosh, I need that. Or I've been waiting for that or the process, right? And I'm gonna click on it. But talk to us a little bit to that point is like, not only the patience of if you get the right ad in place from the beginning, but also kind of that tweaking it if you know how you might have to move things around. If you don't see success right in the beginning.

Geoff 07:19

Totally. Yeah, we're always pivoting. That's probably our favorite word in the advertising in the advertising world. So it's funny, ROI. A lot of times we'll plan for something. I've seen the best plans, the best creative, I'm like, Oh, my God, this is gonna be a smash here. How can this not work? And then you put it out there, nobody clicks? nobody buys. It's a total flop. But listen, you're like, Okay, I sold the products. Good. I still know that people want it. We did a research that consumers want that. So how can we reposition this and figure out some of that they do that they're going to grasp some of that's going to engage them. So we typically try to come anytime we launch five to 10, different positionings different selling propositions, and we'll just test them all we'll see the response rate both Okay, these two are working, let's see how we can iterate these two concepts and flesh it out.

Roy Barker 08:04

Okay, so now in in time was what's, uh, what how, you know, what could buyer? Or what could your consumer expect from? You know, let's just go from today, you know, I kind of walk in the door, and we agree to move forward. You know, what is the time involved in that planning, but then also to once you place the ad, or you know, the placement of whatever you're doing? So like, how long do you give that first cut? ago? Or do you put like three or four out there at one time to see which one you may be getting some traction on?

Geoff 08:40

Yeah, so it's interesting, Facebook has this really cool idea. It's called the dynamic ad. So let's say that I set the targeting men 18 to 45, who are interested in cars. So that's going to create me an audience of 10 million people great. Within that targeting, now I'm going to create an ad, I can add five different headlines, five different images, five different videos, five different body texts, and what face book is going to do is they're going to send it all out, and they're going to find the best combination for that targeting group. So you're going to know ROI right away, probably after anywhere from three to $600 a week, then you're gonna see enough lift to be like, Okay, this has some chance of success. Let's read from here. If you're trying to build a brand, you know, maybe it's a longer life cycle, a higher cost product, something that requires some education, perhaps we'll go through the funnel, educate them at the top of the funnel, then maybe come back to them with a little more down funnel message and then finally model funnel by so it really depends on the product. Some require, like it's a quick intent, oh, I need that right now. Now suppose Okay, I need to educate you about this so you can understand the benefits then also to

Roy Barker 09:45

do you notice that usually, with price points that you know, with more things that cost less money, probably the reaction is much quicker than like you said, maybe higher ticket items or services may just Take a little bit longer in that cycle.

Geoff 10:01

Absolutely right, I think like you said, a product that's maybe 2030 or $40. A lot of people can afford that they can justify that spend this, okay, you know what, I haven't bought anything in a while I've been out, this is a quick buy, I really want this to speak more, I'm going to buy something that's maybe you kind of in that three, four figure range that's going to require Oh, you maybe you get to go talk to your wife, who's gonna buy for your kid, there's more important things to buy. So how am I going to justify the spend from an advertiser, I have to show them how to justify this bed and why they need it.

Roy Barker 10:18

You have to show my you have show my wife why it's necessary. So um, the other thing is that, so so something's going pretty good. And I guess, you know, good is measured. Everybody has different standards. But you know, let's say you're like, pretty happy with this. It's getting a lot of traction. So do you like take a secondary idea or secondary keywords and kind of throw out there to see how that works to? You know, because I guess you know, what I'm thinking about is Who knows, maybe, you know, 25% is a good click through rate or return rate. But you never know until you try something else, you may get 4050 off of that. Or you may get five or 10 and have to revert back.

Geoff 11:20

Yeah, totally. We're like, I think a lot of the times too, it's about scale, right? So maybe in the first initial campaign, we let's say we sell 500 or 1000 units, and things are going great. But now the partner comes back and say, okay, we want to 10x 100x this revenue. It's interesting, once you seal the spend, the performance is cool. At that point, when you kind of go that mass market, now you're talking to a lot of different niches, a lot of different conversations. So you have to really tailor the ads and the messages to each one of those niches, and develop personas for these buyers. because like you said, you're going to get lucky in that first little bit and go, Oh, my gosh, we have a goldmine. And then when you try to expand it to the masses, it doesn't hit or the performance is at stake. So it's all about testing to planning for that.

Roy Barker 12:03

Yeah. And so it kind of breaking it down for novice like me what you're saying that initial spin. I don't even know what let's just say we put five or $10,000 out there, we're getting 25 30%. So what you're saying is I come back and I'm excited. And I'm like, Okay, now I'm going to throw you 50,000 and you put it out there? And you I guess do you continue with that 25? Or does when you're saying that it doesn't carry when? When we try to expand it? Does it actually do you see that start going down the percentage

Geoff 12:38

it's tough to hold up profitability metrics, when you do scale it at such a large pace. So what you have to do is, that's where kind of the burning becomes really important. You got to develop email lists, or customer use has to be on point, we're going to go to other channels, we're going to add to Amazon. We're going to make sure Google searches on point we're going to add maybe bank, we're going to add go to other ad networks to try to explain the Ricciardo.

Roy Barker 13:03

Okay, so does what I'm selling the product or service, or my spend, does that determine the channel you go? Or do you always kind of have the this is the kind of the first path that we're going to go down and see how that works? And then, you know, adjust from there. Or if I depend on if I'm selling a high end consulting service versus I don't know, you know, a $25. widget does that make you say, Facebook versus Google versus LinkedIn or something like that.

Geoff 13:37

So I think it really comes down to more of the demographic of the buyer, right, Roy? So think about this, I mean, maybe a 18 to 27 year old kid, if that's the buyer base, I'm probably gonna say, Hey, tiktoks is the place to go right now. Maybe if it's that kind of mom, the 35 to 45 year old young Bob a little more affluent, maybe Pinterest is where we're gonna go test it. If it's maybe that 50 to 60 year old man, Facebook's a great spot for so we really just try to figure out where the buyer is, and then we'll select the platform to advertise based on that.

Roy Barker 14:08

So So have you ever been surprised by the I guess the the actual buyers, demographics? I don't know. I'm just thinking I'm selling a product. And I've sold a few of them. And, you know, they were like, maybe men 30 to 40 years old, somewhere in that range. So you know, I assume that, you know, kind of our empty intake. These are questions you're asking me, you know, what is this product? Who is it? who's buying it? And then So have you ever been surprised, like you kind of targeted 30 to 40 year old men, but all of a sudden, some other demographic kind of tends to rise to the top 100%

Geoff 14:45

ROI happens all the time, actually. We kind of lean on like you said, the partner or the product person that we're working with to understand their buyer, but oftentimes they don't or maybe that that buyer was who was buying in Home Depot or who was buying it. At the at the local CBS that online buyers going to be a different person. So they kind of assume something. And then once you begin the day like oh my gosh, it's actually someone that's 20 years older, they're always on their mobile phone. And this is the type of buyer actually for digital marketing. So I think just based on the platform, go back to just what I said before, about Tick Tock versus Instagram versus Facebook, the same thing offline, it's a kind of retail resolve is a completely different buyer. Yeah.

Roy Barker 15:27

So what if I come to you and just tell you, I have no idea who's buying the same? You know, I haven't sold a lot of it, but just really haven't had the tools to keep up? Is there a way that you can kind of help them dig in? Or do you basically just have to start with your best guess looking at the the product or service and saying, well, this looks like this demographic? And then just shoot it out there and try it? Or do you have some kind of a method that you can help narrow that down?

Geoff 15:54

Yeah, we definitely have a method, we use a lot of surveys, we kind of have a list of people that have purchased a lot of products before. So we have a long kind of email and consumer list that we can bounce these kind of ideas off of we'll send a survey to all them, we'll get some response data. We'll also look in the markets you kind of similar products and who's buying them? That'll give us a good idea. Yeah. And then finally, you know what, we'll give our best guess and say, okay, we think it's between this demographic, this age, it's this gender and the kind of like this, then we'll put it out on Facebook and Instagram. And sometimes we miss the mark by a little bit, and then we'll just adapt the messaging accordingly.

Roy Barker 16:27

Okay, so I'm on the spend. Is there as you know, again, I'm sure it's different for everything. But is there a sweet spot where you know, somebody comes to you with 234 $100, maybe not enough to really gain the traction? Or, I mean, even with that amount of money, can you put something out there and kind of get a feel for it is there like a minimum amount that it just generally takes to really get things kicked off?

Geoff 16:56

Yeah, so we have what we call a web test model. So ranges between 15 to $20,000, that gets you a Shopify store, full production creative will have a fold issue will get you three to seven videos, and 10 plus images. And then we'll also reserve $10,000 in media spend, again, that's going right to Facebook, or to Google, that's kind of our starter package. 15 to 20k will get you up online, we'll get you some sales results. And then from there, we'll know okay, you don't want ROI, you have a chance to be successful. This is our suggestion for the next round. Right away or goals, God sales from day one, I mean, we have products that we just launched last month that we did 100k revenue right away, they came to us at that exact same package just started with that 15 to 20k test, and we blew it out of the water in the first month. So it can happen again, it's kind of like that batting average. But there's success stories that at that investment.

Roy Barker 17:48

So and kind of you said, talked about videos. So when what is the you hear a lot about with YouTube being a great place to do how tos. And I know that there are people that on both sides of this that it's like, well, I don't want to give away too much. And I'm what I think I've found over the years is sometimes if we give away enough, people realize that I can't if it's a service or a product that, you know, it's like, I can't do this, this guy just showed me how difficult this was to do. And I'm like it because I'm the same way. You know, I watch these YouTube videos and, you know, I get an idea of whether I can actually perform this or not. Is that? How's that hold up?

Geoff 18:32

Yeah, so we call it ROI in our world, we call it a user generated content. UGC is the short form, it works really well on social media, because just like you said, People want to resonate with somebody that they can relate to it, okay. I mean, that's normal person like me, there, they can do this, they can execute this product, they can use it well. So I think those videos work really well on social as opposed to those super salesy super commercials and videos, we know right away. This is that they're trying to sell them something. Right. Right. is more relatable, it's more authentic and organic.

Roy Barker 19:05

Yeah. Yeah, you know, we talked about that a lot. Or I do my position on you know, blogs and things like that is the more personal you can make it because when we get down to it, you know, if you're buying a trinket, you know, five or $10 item, maybe you don't really have to resonate that much. It's like you know, this is something I need or want us all get it but once you start getting to a certain point is like I need to resonate with this person. And so, you know, we always talk about trying to be as personal as you can, you know, you kind of have to keep that line between, you know, too much information but yet not so stiff because it's it's just like the internet. You know, I'm old enough around to was around when the internet was invented. So you know, back in the day, especially professionals, suit and tie, you know, that was your picture. Everything very professional and, you know, kind of stuffy to be on That's something that's kind of eased up over time is now it's, you know, the jacket, but people with their dogs and things like that. And I think that personal touch can really help resonate with people be like, Hey, I like this guy cuz typically, that's pretty bad from as people we identify with or people that we, you know, think we could like,

Geoff 20:24

I totally agree with your Yeah, it's it's come a long way users are getting smarter. They've seen all the ads now the mess going around for a while like you said they've seen everything, they're getting more intelligent. So we got to find kind of those organic, authentic ways to prove that the product or service is worth it.

Roy Barker 20:38

Yeah. And I may be I may not be the typical consumer. But one thing I kind of when I see the polished slick ads, you know, I tend to kind of shy away from them, because I'm like, Huh, what's going on with it? Why do they have to be why they overcompensating, I guess and you know that to be honest, that's kind of the way I like to run the show is not to be overproduced. I just, it just needs to be a casual conversation, because what I'm hoping is that the audience, this message resonates with our audience, somebody hears what you're saying, like, Hey, I like that guy think I can trust him and want to work with him. So you know, I feel like this is the same way, when we are placing ads or doing videos. And again, I'll put that as a question to you is that it's kind of where we need to go is not the not be too polished. I mean, we need to be professional, but there's definitely a sweet spot in between, they're

Geoff 21:33

totally right. And I think you got to think too, about these niches or someone like yourself, who's kind of understands ads more, he's seen it all, he's looking for that authentic organic content, we're going to try to reach you and these ads are going to hit with you. Maybe someone else who's, maybe they're new to the country, they're used to something else, you don't know who you're gonna hit on the internet. And that's the beauty of advertising is trying to create all these videos or millions of people, because everyone's different, you and I are different, you and I like different things. Something else is something new is gonna make me engage and not make you engage. So it's all about testing and finding those niches and targeting correctly.

Roy Barker 22:10

So what are some pleasant surprises? You know, what's what's one that you just knocked out of the park that you're like, still can't believe that happened? Yeah, so it's funny. We've my agency and my dad, there was a product that we worked with shamwow. I mean, we kind of were that Dr. agency at the start. He was like this, like pseudo celebrity. He just those first few products and just completely knocked him out of the park. The shaman was just a champion that I mean, you and I could go clean our car on a Saturday and maybe find it at at the Home Depot. And it would be to five bucks, this guy needed a whole business and a whole brand. Right? I mean, if he came to you with that product, and you never knew it, you and I would probably both laugh month like no way this is gonna work. Right? This is such a hard seller. He was so talented at selling it and making it look like such a unique product. And it just took off. Oh my gosh, yeah, I thought it again a lot. I think he actually passed away if I'm not mistaken. around. I was around.

Geoff 23:15

Yeah. Yeah. He's just not as involved with advertising anymore.

Roy Barker 23:19

Okay, interesting. So, I guess, you know, as we kind of wrap this up, what are some things that you would recommend? Not only that people do but you know, maybe some information that it's helpful to pull together before somebody engages with you before we actually have a sit down?

Geoff 23:39

Yeah. So I think that it's the most important thing, right? Is just understanding your costs. What can you pay to acquire a new customer, you have to understand what your cost of goods are, what you're going to be paying for shipping? What's your product cost is all of these things. Once you have that sorted out, you're going to be so far ahead of the competition, we have people coming to us with no idea what their cost of goods, they don't know what they can pay to acquire customer. Understanding those metrics is going to set you so far ahead, because then that's going to help you determine who to work with what your budget is going to be, what the life of the product is, it's going to help you twofold. So definitely costing most important, what can you do to acquire the customer?

Roy Barker 24:18

Okay. Yeah, and I guess, kind of extrapolating that making sure that we have I guess at some point, we're going to, probably well, I guess I'll let I'll ask you this instead of guessing. So do we need to have a good web presence? Or is that part of do you build a like kind of like a off to the side landing page that really has nothing to do with my website where people can just go there, buy it and move on?

Geoff 24:46

Exactly what we'll build a completely separate website just for this campaign. As your website people are going to maybe know the name of it when you're advertising on Facebook and Instagram and people are just clicking the ad very rarely. They're going to read the URL and just memorize that calm, we'll create a completely separate siloed website on Shopify. And then after it's done, you own it, you take it, or you can just pause it and shut it down and just revert back to whatever you got existing.

Roy Barker 25:14

Okay. Okay, cool. Well, that's awesome. Geoff, it's been a lot of great information before we get away a couple things. Number one, you know, is there any other any last points or comments that you want to make before we wrap up?

Geoff 25:26

I think it's just right. First of all, appreciate you having me on was a pleasure to talk to you. And second, I mean, there's no bad ideas. Like I said to you, we've seen some of the worst become amazing. And some of the some of the best ones never succeed. So yeah, just kind of leave yourself understand the costs, and you never know what could happen.

Roy Barker 25:43

Yeah, never give up. Like I said, you know, you made this point too, is that even if I come to you with what we think is the best laid plans may be that just doesn't work the first time. So be prepared. Make this, like any marketing, make it for the long term. And, you know, if you just if you have to have the short bump, you just have to be able to hang on, sometimes it doesn't always happen, but just be able to be willing to work through everything to get on the right path. Okay, so do you have a tool or a habit? Is there something that you use in your daily life, professional or personal, that really adds a lot of value?

Geoff 26:23

Absolutely. I'm a huge note taker, right. And I am like a big To Do List guy, I write everything down every week, I have a to do list to check it off. Without it, I have no idea where it would be. It's kind of like my reminder. And that is my everyday to do list checklist, go through it. And old school write it down in a notebook, even though I would say maybe I'm early 30s, kind of a new generation, but I'm still the kind of old school in that regard.

Roy Barker 26:50

I got my little trusty notebook I keep with me, you know, when we do these, and it kind of going off of that, you know, the, there are a couple of note taking services out there that I've been, I'm trialing right now that are pretty cool. You know, when you're on a zoom call or something like that, because I talk to a lot of people, and sometimes it's like thumbing back through school can be burned. Same way, I'm given these trial to see, you know, how it is moving to the digital notetaking?

Geoff 27:19

Let me know, let me know when you find it, because you have to try it.

Roy Barker 27:23

Yeah, yeah, it. It's, I guess it's here. You know, there's a couple competitors out there. So I think is probably here to stay. But anyway, yeah, I'll let you know how this goes in a month or so. So let's just kind of break it down a little more. So who do you like to work with? How can you help them? And of course, how can they reach out and get a hold of you?

Geoff 27:46

Yeah, I mean, we like to work with people that are passionate about their, their product or their service. They believe in it, they want to see it through, like you said, they're gonna be persistent. They're willing to work through changes, they understand that they're not going to hit the home right off the bat. Those of us who like to work with people that we resonate with, and get along with, but we're open to working with anybody. I mean, we have people from Australia, to Hong Kong to United States, obviously, in Europe, and we're based in Canada. So we work with everybody, and how they can reach us, you can find us kingstermedia.com. We have the contact form on the website, fill it out, we'll get back to you right away. Give us a call the phone numbers there, where we work 24 seven, we'll always get back to you and we'd love to see you succeed.

Roy Barker 28:28

Okay, great. Well, Geoff, thanks again for your time. And I can't say thank you enough for your patience through this. Not only for the last month getting you here, but also, we're getting on here tonight. So thank you so much for that. It's been a pleasure. Y'all reach out let Geoff help you put together a plan for your paid media advertising, that paid digital advertising, I should say and that way. Let him help you be successful. That's the best way is, you know, find these experts in this field. Let him do his thing in that way. We don't guys like me don't have to overthink it and make all the mistakes that we make trying to do it ourselves. All right. Well, that's gonna do it for another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course, you can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com. We're on all the major podcast platforms at iTunes, Stitcher, Google, Spotify, we're on all the major social media platforms as well probably hanging out more on Instagram than anywhere else. A video of this interview will go up when the episode goes live, so you can check that on YouTube. Again, we appreciate our audience and we just take care of yourself and take care of your business. Until next time.

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