Top 10 Future Proof Jobs of 2024 with Jonathan Cater.

Mission Control Podcast

In today's episode, Mike is joined by guest Jonathan Cater. They review a list of the top 10 best jobs in 2024 and give their thoughts on each. The list is heavily focused on the tech sector so certain jobs are not listed. Thank you for tuning in!

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00:00:00:01 - 00:00:21:02 Mike&Jon But you've told me we've just spent an hour together, an hour and a half, 2 hours ago, talking about this entire fucking process and your project. And you've told me every step of the way that we're really good fit. I'm going to make it as uncomfortable as possible for you to tell you.

00:00:21:04 - 00:00:41:24 Mike&Jon Welcome back to another episode of the Missing Control Podcast. It's your boy, Mike Stearns, with the Ascend Digital Agency, Jonathan Carter. You came all the way from Detroit. He's upset with me, folks. Is a little bit upset. I'll tell you why he's upset. I was in Detroit. I was with Eric. Eric Green of Paramount Roofing. And that's that's also John's stomping grounds.

00:00:41:24 - 00:01:01:11 Mike&Jon And I didn't check in. Go check in. And that's I mean, I'm lucky, you know, Let me slide on that one. You know, it could have been unfortunate, but here we are. And, dude, thanks for stopping by. Dude, the the the reality is, if anybody goes into Detroit, they got to check in. That's just you know what I'm saying?

00:01:01:14 - 00:01:19:24 Mike&Jon But honestly, it's an honor. So when I come in to Buffalo, I got to check in with Mike and I'm saying I got check in with this team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So much. You know the fucking vibes. Isn't that what the kids are saying? This is forking vibes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, the show's brought to you by not only the Central Agency, but the team over a roofer.

00:01:19:26 - 00:01:44:20 Mike&Jon So if you need its roof quotes, clean and pristine measurements, serum. You got a serum cooking here. It's pretty cool. Head of the team, a roofer. You can find that in the link below. Tell them I sent you. They're not doing. They're not doing matches. They're not doing matching roofers with roofers. What's it roofers do? What is it?

00:01:44:20 - 00:02:05:06 Mike&Jon Was it called the roofer dating site? Okay, moving on, moving on, moving on. So what's up? What do you what type of segment do you want to do today? I understand you'd brought to my attention maybe doing something along the lines of trending jobs in 2020 for nothing roofing related. It's going to you know, the reality is, is people are out here looking for jobs.

00:02:05:09 - 00:02:32:15 Mike&Jon Right. And so we're going to help people out with some of the positions they should probably be looking to fill up. Right. And like give a little bit of critique as to why that is. We already got a bubbly that was going to snap off with you, bro. Okay. Give me a clean, bubbly head. The DMS. If you want to sponsor the show, you make LinkedIn, go and get it and look at I'm a man of the people, so I very much value having this conversation and giving my opinion that it is worth anything.

00:02:32:15 - 00:02:58:20 Mike&Jon But I'll give it to you anyways because it's my show and I'll do what I want. How are you, Christian? Pull it up. What are we got for 2024? Most sought after jobs or number one data scientist Number one, data science data scientist. Does that mean I imagine like beakers, imagine computers. I imagine one in zeros. I'm assuming what a data scientist is.

00:02:58:20 - 00:03:37:26 Mike&Jon What is the actual definition of a data scientist? Data scientists analyze and interpret complex data sets to inform business decision making. They use statistical methods, programing and machine learning to extract valuable insights. I could see why that is very sought after and trending. I feel like, especially like with AI and machine learning, being able to digest large datasets and then actually pull value and meaning out of them would be incredibly valuable to I mean, any business for sure, right?

00:03:37:28 - 00:03:57:14 Mike&Jon There's no doubt about it, dude. If you're in a 1 to $3 million range in this industry, you don't have to look at data. Yeah, yeah. You don't need you just don't need to look at it because it's not a metric for success. You shouldn't make decisions based off of that. No, you should make decisions based off of feelings because feelings will drive you.

00:03:57:17 - 00:04:18:29 Mike&Jon Feelings are fact. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you probably don't have the time to look at the data like. And that's good enough. I'm going to go off on a tangent here. I'm going to start a little rant and, you know, the tendency for people to evade accountability. You know, I hear people all the time. I just don't have the time.

00:04:19:02 - 00:04:37:09 Mike&Jon I would challenge you and what I would challenge you to do is, you know, open up your phone, Look, look at where you're spending your time activity wise, just in your phone alone. How many minutes or hours are you spending on Instagram, on TikTok, on Facebook data, you know, on dating apps? I mean, there's a lot of data, right?

00:04:37:12 - 00:05:04:00 Mike&Jon And what we're not doing is we're just not prioritizing certain things that could be done with time that we're mismanaging and spending in places that are intended to distract us or make us feel better or just kind of pass time. So that's my rant is stop saying you don't have time. Make the time, make things that you need to do a priority and let the things that are less impactful or should be a lower priority actually fall down the list of priorities.

00:05:04:02 - 00:05:34:13 Mike&Jon Yeah. Do you do you have someone in that position that isn't like a data tracker or. shit, I think we all, we all look at data all the time from the content team, design development team, you know. Charlie Dan I mean, we were all consistently digesting data. I don't think we're data scientists not saying that, but we always look at data because we do what we can to improve user experience on websites, make pivots in SEO campaigns, Google ads, things like that.

00:05:34:13 - 00:05:57:11 Mike&Jon And that all is premised around understanding what's happening as a result of the things that we're doing so that we can make iterations and ultimately be better and better as time goes on in 2024. What do you think are the top data points that you look at in order to decide whether you want to maintain or grow, deciding whether you want to maintain or grow?

00:05:57:11 - 00:06:16:23 Mike&Jon So I'm a roofing comedy. I'm doing $3 million do. I'm trying to decide if I say status quo or if I go to four or five 6 million. I don't. I think the the leading indicator and the thing that I would follow would not necessarily be data. It would be how I feel and how much of my sanity I want to compromise for growth.

00:06:16:25 - 00:06:36:16 Mike&Jon For real. Absolutely. When you're going from, you know, 3 to 4 million, in my experience, is not terribly challenging. But if you're trying to go from 3 to 6, from 6 to 9, you know that type of growth, you're going to, you know, break a lot of eggs to make that omelet and it's going to be stressful. And not everybody wants that.

00:06:36:18 - 00:06:56:13 Mike&Jon And I think that some people that think they want it don't actually want it, and they don't know that they don't want it until they actually get it. I've seen this before where a company goes from like 10 million to 17 over the course of a year. Man, there was some fall out. There were there were a lot of hard conversations, a lot of long days and nights trying to figure things out.

00:06:56:13 - 00:07:15:27 Mike&Jon Cash flow issues, right. Which are very taxing on the soul. So I think that would be the first thing that I would look at when trying to decide, okay, do I really want to grow this thing or am I good enough where I'm at? Because, you know, if you're doing if you're doing $3 million in revenue or, you know, whatever, you know, you're not profiting off that.

00:07:15:27 - 00:07:39:06 Mike&Jon Maybe you're making 150, maybe maybe you're making 300. Like if that's good for you and you can sustain your family, your needs and put money away, like as that the data point, then you're looking at like bottom line, net profit. Well, that's going to influence, right? My decision once I get past the point of, you know, what is how do I feel as it relates to my work life balance.

00:07:39:09 - 00:07:59:25 Mike&Jon And that's going to change for everybody because me, I like I work a lot all the time and I like it and that's why I do it. Some people don't want to work 60, 70 hours a week and that's fine, right? You know, you're running your business, you get to do what you want to do. But I think that there's a tendency to for people to hype up girls, girls, girls, girls, girls, girls, girls.

00:07:59:25 - 00:08:14:25 Mike&Jon And not everybody necessarily wants that. So be, you know, reflect on what's happened over the last 12 months and what your financial situation is and what position you want to be in 12 months from now. Like, do you want more money or do you want to be able to take an extra vacation with your kids while they're young?

00:08:15:02 - 00:08:32:24 Mike&Jon Because I mean, I have a six year old daughter, you blink an eye and they're fucking grown. You know, you don't get that time back. Do you think that because right now you're that data person, do you think at some point that you would offload that or do you think you'll always have some sort of capacity for it?

00:08:32:27 - 00:08:59:19 Mike&Jon Because I've seen some people they'll take the they'll take basically they'll try to find either a strategic partner that is like a CFO, CEO, slash position, and the CFO kind of almost operates in that CEO position where they're looking at data to make financially different decisions. Yeah. So like, you know, we did that year or two with having like a CPA having bookkeeping and services like that, right?

00:08:59:21 - 00:09:20:06 Mike&Jon I don't think that any of us within my company will get away from ultimately looking at data, you know, and maybe as the company grows, there's more people come in and have a dedicated role to specific data and making decisions for the company. But, you know, we're all going to be in these deep in data in perpetuity for from as far as I can see.

00:09:20:08 - 00:09:41:10 Mike&Jon Do you think that do you think that when you're looking at data in your business that you could be looking at too much and as a result, you don't really make a true decision? Like do you think that it has to always get simplified? The answer is yes. I think people it's just like anything else, right? You know, if a realtor shows you 50 houses, right.

00:09:41:10 - 00:09:56:06 Mike&Jon They don't do that because the likelihood of you making a decision is fucking zero because you've got something you like about all of them. And it's just really hard to make a decision. That's why he going to restaurants where there's three page menus. Yeah, it's, I don't know just like be really good at a few things and like let me see what's from those.

00:09:56:08 - 00:10:30:11 Mike&Jon And I think it's the same thing when you're talking about like companies and you know, being bogged down and it's like the paralysis by analysis thing. You've got all these different KPIs that you're looking at. For me, it's, you know, there's going to be a few that are way more important than the rest. And that's not to say those other ones are meaningless, but, you know, I don't want to get into a situation where we're wasting time, energy and effort focusing on things that have diminishing returns as far as like consideration, consistent consideration, right?

00:10:30:12 - 00:10:52:02 Mike&Jon Like if I'm a roofing company, what's really important to me from a marketing and advertising perspective, my cost per acquired customer, that's the one thing that I'm going to try to figure out, right? Not the cost per lead, not the cost per click, not how many website visitors I have. Like what is it costing me to acquire a customer like full lifespan, Like from the time they come in to like the time they get closed contract signed?

00:10:52:06 - 00:11:11:15 Mike&Jon Yeah, exactly. Collect it. Right. Because now if you figure out what it costs you to acquire a customer, now you can start turning this into a math problem. Okay, well, it costs us $700 to acquire a customer by way of marketing and advertising. And we know that you know, we want to do an additional two and a half million dollars in revenue.

00:11:11:17 - 00:11:43:19 Mike&Jon We close at 35% as per our CRM, assuming we have clean data. So now becomes a math problem. How many leads do I need in order to accomplish the growth that I want? Right. And they don't all have to come from marketing and advertising. They can come from relationships and networking, referrals, things like that. But it allows you to paint a clean picture to where, again, if you can boil it down to a math problem and just have variables, those are easily the easy to solve versus things that are like qualitative, where it's it's more guesswork, It's it's less attribution and numbers driven.

00:11:43:22 - 00:12:09:02 Mike&Jon What do you mean by clean data? Yeah. So when I say, you know, you know that on average your ticket is this much and your net profits, thus that's assuming that folks within the company are properly inputting data, right? So your customers, when they come in and they call in and you're going to do business with them, you're documenting their name, you're documenting, you know, their address, their phone number, their email address, you're documenting where they came from.

00:12:09:04 - 00:12:32:02 Mike&Jon And then throughout the entire lifecycle of that customer, from the time that the inception of that first contact through them paying their final invoice or, you know, the claim being approved and finalized, all the information accurately being documented. And a lot of the times that's not the case. So like my question then becomes, what's worse, not using data at all or making decisions based off of data that's wildly inaccurate.

00:12:32:04 - 00:13:06:09 Mike&Jon Yeah, yeah. I had a situation like that. I mean, even in the beginning when we were trying to really get structured, it seemed like we took forever to find to find, just like our CPAs, because then the mismatched labeling. So you don't get like exactly what you're talking about together and it's never going to be someone came through Google, but they were actually actually that's one thing that that I've been dealing with a lot is like people that are referrals and the referrals will come to you, but they'll come to you through Google because X, Y, Z person told someone about you.

00:13:06:09 - 00:13:28:28 Mike&Jon Yeah. And you know, it's on a Rolodex. Yeah. You know, it's like, I'm a look this name up on Google and go through Google and then it's a Google lead. But it was really a referral lead. Yeah. And that's why, I mean, it's never going to be perfect is the same way as when, like if we're running a Google ad campaign, we usually spend a small percentage of the ad budget on branded search.

00:13:29:09 - 00:13:48:18 Mike&Jon yeah, It's not because we're trying to trick you into thinking that we got your leads, that we're just repeat customers. It's because I know that a lot of my customers, if somebody is looking for roofing contractor, let's say in Dayton, Ohio, right. A lot of your a lot of your competitors will have roofing in their name, right?

00:13:48:18 - 00:14:16:01 Mike&Jon So if you're not running branded ads and someone is looking for your company's name, well, let's say it's ABC Roofing. By virtue of them targeting the keyword roofing, they can show up for your branded search before you because you're not running ads for branded search. Right now, the people that are searching, you have to understand the behavior. When they're searching, they're assuming that Google's giving them the most relevant results to their query.

00:14:16:04 - 00:14:32:05 Mike&Jon So if I'm looking for ABC Roofing, the first thing is Pops. Pops is definitely going to be ABC Roofing, but it's not if you're not running branded search to protect your your brand of traffic. That's why people say, they're running, they're running ads on my name. Yes. A lot of the times it's not the case. Sometimes it is.

00:14:32:07 - 00:14:58:11 Mike&Jon You can specifically target people's name, but a lot of the times it's just a consequence of you have your keywords that you're targeting for that ad group, roofing, roofer, roofers, roof is part of that keyword site. And because your name has, you know, one of those iterations of roof in it, they're being served up. So, you know, the antidote to that is running branded campaigns so that if somebody is looking specifically for your name, you're getting preference.

00:14:58:11 - 00:15:19:02 Mike&Jon As far as placement on the search engine result page, do you think Angie's List runs ads on their current clientele so that they can look at Matt, I don't want you in trouble here. I mean, listen, man, I don't know nothing. I mean nothing about Angie. I never heard her name before. Yeah, I mean, you know, why wouldn't there?

00:15:19:05 - 00:15:40:04 Mike&Jon Yeah, I've always wondered, because if they are, they're ultimately they, they profit off this, the traffic coming through their platform regardless of the third initially looking for you, looking for them, looking for a general keyword. So I would assume that they're going to do everything that they can to get as much traffic there as possible. But then if you're running Google ads now, you're competing against yourself.

00:15:40:06 - 00:16:04:24 Mike&Jon So yeah, to some degree that's somewhat an escape. Yeah. When you talk about like lead aggregators. Yeah. You know, Christian, how much does a data the data analysis data scientist, data scientist who's just a data scientist. Christian You're like Jamie on the Rogin podcast. It is better though. Look at him. Average salary 99 to 1 7899217. Lucky ship.

00:16:04:24 - 00:16:27:25 Mike&Jon I might become a data scientist. What the fuck is the difference between 99 to 170 Expertise and experience? Dirty dirty data Dirty data vacuum. Mr. Cole, Mr. Clean can have the dirty air. So if you want to start off at 100 K, go be a data scientist. What are the requirements for somebody to pursue a a career in data science?

00:16:27:27 - 00:16:52:06 Mike&Jon I mean, bachelors degree, I don't want to say that useless now, but you know, they're like the equivalent of a GED 25 years ago. Everyone's got them. So I'm assuming you're going to need some sort of grad degree. Many companies are happy to hire someone with the right skills required for the job and relevant coding experience. So. Well, maybe there's yes, I'm sure there's some people that would be self taught that could, you know, do those things or whatever types of resumes they jumped in.

00:16:52:10 - 00:17:14:02 Mike&Jon Like if you're literally a data management company and then you go into a service based company, they're going to be like, okay, yeah, give this guy a higher salary. Some employers prefer or require a master's or doctoral degree, appears to be a Ph.D. in data scientist get saddled with $300,000 in debt and then we're going to pay you 100 a year or two.

00:17:14:02 - 00:17:42:26 Mike&Jon We barely survive. Good luck paying this off. Yeah, you got to get at that 170, Doug. All right, what's next? Number two on the list, AI and ML Engineer, Artificial Intelligence and machine Learning Engineer. Yeah, that's stupid. Huge. Yeah. Yeah, because everybody's at the beta phase of of AI, and I still think AI for the most part is at the beginning 2.0 going into like 3.0 phase.

00:17:42:28 - 00:18:18:06 Mike&Jon But I think companies really have to figure out not how to eliminate positions, but create positions that integrate that. I mean, there's a lot of there's coaches out here that just swear that you are is turnkey and they can already take the place of whole marketing agencies. I mean, coming from a creative standpoint, I don't think that it it misses the human element and so it misses the originality of the human voicing that each brand has.

00:18:18:09 - 00:18:45:12 Mike&Jon So I think to the level of caliber, you miss a little bit of brand voicing coming specifically from a creative. And because yeah, it's just like it's, it's, it always hits maybe like like a 60 to 70% there, but then the 30 to 40% is really noticeable. Yeah. And if you're writing like a 2000 word piece of content, like it tends to be very, very repetitive, you will see sometimes it gives us factually incorrect information.

00:18:45:15 - 00:19:08:11 Mike&Jon Yeah, where the fuck did you get this? Because then because then it's because you put in the wrong prompts. So naturally it'll give you like the response based off your prompts. And if your response, your prompt isn't right, then it's, it's not going to be able to perform high caliber, but it's still polling. It's not, it's not like pulling organic decision made data.

00:19:08:13 - 00:19:28:15 Mike&Jon It's pulling it from other places. So you're going to get repeat shit all the time. Yeah, that's another thing is like plagiarism where, you know, we've seen instances, we always toss that and we continue to test and we use it, but we use it to streamline things. We don't use it to say, okay, we're going to click a button and there's, ah, there's your content calendar for the year, took 7 minutes, chopped me out.

00:19:28:17 - 00:19:53:11 Mike&Jon You still got to make it. There's, there's, there's got to be there's a lot of steps in the process to where it can be used to be more efficient but ultimately like it's not like I, I haven't seen success stories like some people claim some some coaches. And in our industry I've seen to where it's as simple as you know what do this you don't need a marketing agency owning a marketing team.

00:19:53:13 - 00:20:13:25 Mike&Jon You just need one person, you know, to spend an hour, a month, 2 hours, a month. You're good. I just think right now is good for pre prep for Yeah, it's good for like the mundane stuff. But when it comes to like stepping to the plate, you need to be able to know how to use it enough and then know when not to use it.

00:20:13:27 - 00:20:36:03 Mike&Jon You know, like I think too many people want to use it because they want that that scapegoat out or they want to, you know, say if you want to eliminate a position and just have that be, I like that's not that's not where as out right now. Yeah. So what do they make Christian how much money. How much money but like coding shit.

00:20:36:06 - 00:20:58:00 Mike&Jon I think coding is like really big for like API because then the time it takes to like write code versus like having I write code like that's like a beginner error type of. Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. So let's say we have to write some code and write a program, All right? You integrate that into your business.

00:20:59:03 - 00:21:17:15 Mike&Jon Code base. Yeah. You don't know where does now? Well, I don't know. Well, it's a problem you have to hire air to fix it, and. Yeah, Yeah, you're going to find a way through our how to fix it, or you have to pay somebody. And if they don't, maybe they don't code it in the same programing language.

00:21:17:17 - 00:21:37:09 Mike&Jon Or maybe it's it's, it's there's just so many variables and I'm not, I'm not an expert coder at all. I'm not even a good coder. I'm not a coder. But I can tell you like there's members of my team that code and you know, there's there's a lot of issues that come up when you're coding things out and it can be a challenge.

00:21:37:12 - 00:22:09:07 Mike&Jon It that's why I think you still need the position. You still need that human element that keeps it accountable. I must say making Christian $196,620 less than the data person. They're no data scientists, but scientists, you know, they can make decisions well, number three, Number three, three, health care professional doctor, including doctors, nurses, pharmacists and other medical practitioners.

00:22:09:14 - 00:22:28:19 Mike&Jon I'm out on that. I would never want to do it, but that's me personally. And obviously you're out here saving lives and I appreciate that. And when something goes wrong, I want a doctor. I want a licensed nurse practitioner or whoever to be able to save me. I just can't do it myself. Yeah, my. It will. Joe and his two sisters.

00:22:28:19 - 00:22:56:26 Mike&Jon Yeah, they're all in the medical field, so, you know, they're they're looking at like 100 plus thousand dollars of debt and then they probably won't be able to recoup that for quite some time. But I think it's definitely highly sought after just with, you know, situations that happen and like between recent history and stuff like that. But I don't know where that is lucrative.

00:22:56:26 - 00:23:16:24 Mike&Jon It's really not as lucrative as number one. And number two, number one. And number two, you can tell, I think I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. You think you get out of like you're doing your residency and all the good stuff like Ty around, like a specialty, like cardiology, right. You get out of that, you're making three 5450, right?

00:23:16:24 - 00:23:38:29 Mike&Jon You're doing, you're doing pretty well. Now you also have a quarter million dollars in debt, but you you have much more. So the means to pay that debt off. Yeah. You know, versus if you know you're going you're getting a degree that costs 60 grand. And when you get out of school, you're making 60 grand. It's it's a lot tougher to to live a comfortable life while having money to pay for that.

00:23:39:01 - 00:24:02:01 Mike&Jon Do you think health care professionals can make enough money to be wealthy working for someone else or they have to go private? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, it depends on what you consider wealthy. I mean, at this at this stage it would probably be just with kind of everything would probably be between the 3 to 6 range, right.

00:24:02:02 - 00:24:36:17 Mike&Jon Yeah. And I mean then you can start investing in stuff like I don't think I don't think an earn is going to be making 3 to $600000. But I'm sure like specialty doctors, neurologists, cardiologists, things like that. Yeah, I think they certainly can. Okay Kristen, what do we got for the the the health care professionals? The average U.S. physician earns $350,000 annually, average doctor salary through 50 K, the national average R in salary is $94,480 per year.

00:24:36:19 - 00:24:56:15 Mike&Jon I've got some friends that were nurses and during COBRA, like travel nurses, I mean they were fucking cleaning up. Joe sister's the travel nurse. She's like, she, she gets contracts in three months, three quarter increments. Yeah. And so she'll just either renew it or she'll jump to a different place. That's wild schedule. Good for them, I guess. I mean, I could totally see the travel nurse like direction.

00:24:56:17 - 00:25:22:18 Mike&Jon Like pharmacy is a little bit man. It's, you know, because health care is so wide then there's so many different types of directions that you can go. Yes and no. Like with our ends, probably not traveling nurses a little bit better. I know she's she's taken up being a traveling nurse and then it's convenient to her schedule to Joe's doing well.

00:25:22:21 - 00:25:54:18 Mike&Jon But then, you know, if you're in pharmacy it really depends on where you're set up. But if you're in retail or if you're you could probably speak way more on that. Yeah, but what would you say the earnings were at 100. 200. 100 or 200 is not terrible. It's not. Do you think that you can make a decent living based off of, I guess, a traditional what would be considered traditional success after 200?

00:25:54:20 - 00:26:26:26 Mike&Jon I don't see why not. Yeah, I lost something. This was a couple of years ago, but I think it was Jordan Peterson where he talks about the correlation between money and happiness. Money and happiness and the fact that it almost that correlation never ceases to exist, but it gets a lot looser, like past $70,000 for that, too, because around $70,000 is where, like your needs are met, your immediate needs are you have some disposable income to be able to do some things that you want that you don't need.

00:26:26:29 - 00:26:45:06 Mike&Jon Put a little bit of money away. I mean, then then it's like, be your man. More money, more problems. Is that is that money in the bank that he's talking about like that or. No, I think that was annual income or annual income. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. What are the trades on here at all? I mean, I feel like, yeah, trades are getting pretty good.

00:26:45:06 - 00:27:19:21 Mike&Jon I'm not just saying that because of the audience, but if you look around at the 20 somethings, there's not many guys or girls that, you know, look like they're going to be ready to do any type of plumbing or, you know, this is blue collar work, missing calluses on the hand. So with that being said, I would assume that as time goes on and the supply of those individuals ready and willing to do that work diminishes and the demand stays the same, they're only going to be in higher demand and, you know, paid more, paid more, less people.

00:27:19:24 - 00:27:39:21 Mike&Jon What do we got for number four or market number for a digital market? How you be a digital marketer? Hey, look at all you got to do is watch a YouTube video. You sit in your mom's basement and launch an agency, of course, using cheap do and you'll make millions all year. Let me tell you, I'm gonna give you the secret to success.

00:27:39:23 - 00:28:00:14 Mike&Jon It what you do do like Alice for Moses. This goes through all your contacts, create lists, all these things, and just start adding people on Facebook and you send them a message and it goes something like this. Could you handle 20 to 30 more route replacement leads? We're looking for someone in your area. Can you always looking? Can you leave?

00:28:00:14 - 00:28:20:11 Mike&Jon Are homeowners looking for a roofer right now? You think you could handle 3 to 5 more installations a week? You do that, you're going to be golden. You're golden Ponyboy. I get people that hit me up for leads, not even in this industry. And I'm just like, I'm not at a point where I need leads. Yeah, at a point where I need like, fulfillment and maintenance.

00:28:20:16 - 00:28:42:14 Mike&Jon Yeah, right. So it's they hit me with that and I'm just like, You got anything else here? The other thing is really gone south. I mean, I get hit up all the time asking if I want more roofing leads, and it's very obvious that I'm not a roofing contractor. Yeah, it's very obvious that I just service roofing contractors.

00:28:42:17 - 00:29:11:12 Mike&Jon Right. But, you know, people scrape the Internet and they create these lists, send out auto messages and emails and all these different things, and you're just part of a team. You're just part of this. And I mean, this dude, when I used to do sales, prospecting was my favorite part. Yeah, I loved it. There's something about like going on the hunt, finding people that, like our solutions made sense for convincing them that they should want to talk to me instead of the other 175 people calling them about their Google listening.

00:29:11:19 - 00:29:43:06 Mike&Jon Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Challenging. A lot of fun. Do you have do you have an example of kind of your first your first biggest one in sales when you were doing digital marketing? My first biggest win, Yeah, I think so. My first big sale at the time, it was like a few thousand dollars a month and what we were doing was like for the size of the company and where it was located.

00:29:43:06 - 00:30:01:23 Mike&Jon We were doing like an aggressive ad campaign and I had found them on home Advisor. It was just kind of like, Hey, how's, how's that experience going? So I'll walk you through, start to finish what the process was. So first I found them on Home Advisor, then I found this Facebook page and I liked his Facebook page. Create the norm of reciprocity, right?

00:30:01:25 - 00:30:21:22 Mike&Jon Because no one else I guarantee you is going out. And I want to mention I come to figure out who actually ran the company. So I found his name like the Facebook page for the business. Then I called the number directly from Home Advisor. I assumed it was John. John Yes. Hey, John, it's Mike. How's it going? it's going well, man.

00:30:21:22 - 00:30:41:12 Mike&Jon How are you? Good, I, I got some. Some contractors. We're getting leads for it. Around 100 bucks. A hundred? 25 bucks. And I thought it might be of interest to you. I saw you and home Advisor. I like your Facebook page. No need to thank me. It's okay. Man of the people we talked about this thought it might make sense to have a ten or 15 minute conversation.

00:30:41:12 - 00:30:59:12 Mike&Jon Right. So now from the consumer side, like you've taken time to educate yourself about their business, you don't sound like every other person that's calling them. You've already gone out of your way to help them by like throwing them a like on Facebook. Now, it's not it's not massive, but it's something it shows that you care enough to take an interest in somebody's business.

00:30:59:12 - 00:31:23:04 Mike&Jon And if someone is calling me about my business, one of my favorite interview questions is like, you know, when I'm interviewing candidates, so what do you know about it? So, son. You'd be surprised how many people I know you guys work with roofers. What else do you know? Yeah, well, really, that's it. Okay. Like you're coming to me telling me I should pay you X amount of thousands of dollars every month to come work here.

00:31:23:06 - 00:31:40:18 Mike&Jon You think you would take an interest? So they haven't taken an interest to go above and beyond, like, surface level things. I'm probably not going to consider them for position. But the same thing with like that customer, that prospective customer at the time. It's like when you're cold Kong people, you have a split second to do where you're going to lose their attention.

00:31:40:18 - 00:32:03:29 Mike&Jon They're going to hang up on you. You're going to they're going to decide to keep listening, right? So do things differently. And it's no different with any other type of sales. Be different, memorable. Do that shit. Do that. I should say the first name only too. It's just assuming it's the same thing with like assuming the sale like a lot of people get to the point where they've done a really good pitch.

00:32:03:29 - 00:32:20:12 Mike&Jon They've proved value, they've gotten trial closers every step of the way. So you see how that could make sense for your business. Do you see why this person is getting this and you know you're getting this? Do you see why we do it the way that we do it? Do you see how this could make an impact? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:32:20:12 - 00:32:47:06 Mike&Jon But then they get to the close and it's like, you know what I found? I found that businesses that are actually businesses that are actually succeeding by helping people and digital marketing qualify the fuck out of, you know, like, there are a lot of questions. They don't just take your contract. They don't just assume you like you have to go through this.

00:32:47:09 - 00:33:14:16 Mike&Jon You have to go through, you know, the 10 to 15 minutes of like answering a lot of questions. And the ones that generally are a red flag, they're they're going to ask you the least amount of things because they just want to close you move on to the next. Yeah, but to my point about, like the awkward clothes, like once they get through with like, let's see if they've done everything perfectly from the prospecting to the appointment held, whether it's a digital marketing company or it's a sales rep and roofing, right.

00:33:14:19 - 00:33:36:22 Mike&Jon People have a really hard time doing like the simple thing, which is transitioning into the clothes. So it's like I'm a roofing salesperson and I've just knocked it out of the park and I've gotten there. They're buying every step of the way, and they've told me explicitly a dozen times that, you know, yeah, this all makes sense. I'm going to transition to okay, like I've got Thursday available to get you on the schedule.

00:33:36:25 - 00:33:56:10 Mike&Jon Does Thursday or Friday work better for you? You know, because we're booking kind of tight right now. We had a cancellation Friday and we have Thursday available. Which one would be better to get started? I'm going to make them super uncomfortable being like, what do you mean? Like you've told me, we've just spent an hour together, an hour and a half, 2 hours together talking about this entire fucking process and your project.

00:33:56:12 - 00:34:10:07 Mike&Jon And you've told me every step of the way that we're really good fit. I'm going to make it as uncomfortable as possible for you to tell me, like, I'm going to put the. I'm going to make it put the onus on you to be like, What do you mean? And then I'm going to make you feel crazy for asking me what I mean.

00:34:10:15 - 00:34:27:18 Mike&Jon I got to. I'm sorry. Did I miss something? Yeah, but you told me that you checked out our reviews. You said that you saw value in what we bring to the table as far as your installation methods, best practices, things like that. You said that you saw what other happy customers were saying. You said that you understood why, like, process was so important.

00:34:27:18 - 00:34:46:14 Mike&Jon Why it's important that we have, you know, liability, workman's comp, and we can prove that to you, you every step of the way. You told me that, you know, we would be doing business. So, yeah, I want to get you on the schedule. That would be the next stop here that I missed something. Now shut up and stare at them bewildered.

00:34:46:16 - 00:35:14:18 Mike&Jon Dude, sometimes the best thing is, is to shut up. Yeah. Make it really uncomfortable. Because if you think about it, like, our time is super important right there. Time's important. Our time's important. Yeah. Not just amuse running around to give them information, and, like, whatever. Like I'm here to say, you know, that I'm a salesperson. Yeah, well, it also gives people an even in communication, rather than filling it with word fillers, it's best to just pause.

00:35:14:20 - 00:35:35:21 Mike&Jon Yeah. Yeah. It gives people time to digest what you just said because you rattle off a ton of stuff we've been through. This whole interview process gives them time to think and time to answer with any objections, because the biggest problem that you could have is that at the end of the closed, they have more objections, but you just want to flush it all out and address it all.

00:35:35:22 - 00:35:55:04 Mike&Jon Yeah. Also, I'm not a sales coach, right? So maybe this is shitty advice and it wouldn't work. I think it would work. No, it's common things that I've seen each time in time and again with just different salespeople and whatnot. And I think that, you know, I think you're being pretty humble on that. If if anyone thinks that wouldn't work, I want to put it to the test.

00:35:55:04 - 00:36:11:11 Mike&Jon I'd be happy to come out and go do some roofing sales out in the field. Do Christian. We're about to hit the field dog. Are you ready to get this behind the scenes? A little behind the scenes. Mike in action. I feel like I could sell a roof. Feel like, No, I know you could sell a roof. You have to sell.

00:36:11:12 - 00:36:30:05 Mike&Jon I feel as if, yes, it's my language. So they taught me that in psych and they taught me in Therapy Island, which I feel how I feel, feel, felt, found. Sure. Yeah. Well, all right. What are we at number 508. How much is it? How much? How much can a digital marketer get paid in 2024. I'm excited to hear this.

00:36:30:08 - 00:37:13:09 Mike&Jon Yeah, it's going to be an off the hook number. According to Ziprecruiter, $68,500 is the 25th percentile salaries below this around lawyers. $100,000 is the 75th percentile in Buffalo that 5070 range 50 to 70 seems low to everyone thinks we're just reds are on money it's not the case cause let me hold some know it's just you know just seems to it seems it seems like there's too much demand for it for it to be that low.

00:37:13:12 - 00:37:38:24 Mike&Jon So I don't think that they're I think that they're talking about somebody who is a practitioner of digital marketing that's working for a company, not somebody who has 20 clients and does a freelance like agency agency base. Okay. Yeah. So if you're an agency and you want to hire people, that's your range. Up next, cybersecurity analyst. How much is that?

00:37:38:26 - 00:38:06:18 Mike&Jon I don't know. I just want to know how much it sounds really important and equally awful. $180,000. Do the rug and I people in the positions are just battling with the cybersecurity people. The entry level position starts at $89,268. Damn, that seems low as fuck for cybersecurity. Yeah, I want nothing to do with it, but hey, it just seems like a fucking headache for fucking 19.

00:38:06:18 - 00:38:40:29 Mike&Jon She's like, way more than the fucking Jews disagrees. I don't know. I'm very I'm a dumb person. So, like, thinking about, like, what goes into cybersecurity, It gives me anxiety. Like you need asset protection. whiz, what's up next? Human resources manager. Manager. God. What do they make? 70, 30? Some of these. Most companies just go, We don't really need human resources.

00:38:41:02 - 00:39:11:16 Mike&Jon Between 50,075 K to 5075. I think that make sure people don't think like we we have like a fractional role for h.r. Aware. We have like a consultant. Charlie they do the know. They do the handbook. They do all the types of documents that we need with hiring, with firing like forms, improvement plans, onboarding. Yeah. Okay. To where it's not in-house position, but we have that as a resource to anything that we need.

00:39:11:19 - 00:39:40:03 Mike&Jon So it's really helpful and it's very. And you guys use a h.r. Agency or is that is that what it is? It's a division of our payroll agency. nice. Yeah. Do you recommend for payroll? Nobody. Nobody. Yeah. Up next, full stack developer. What the the your front back end full stack developers possess expertise in both front end and back end development.

00:39:40:06 - 00:39:55:22 Mike&Jon They can work on the entire web development process. that's. That's your field. That's the. Well, the database is the back end, and then the front end is the user interface. Like what you see as a result of what's going on the back end. Usually it's one of the not usually there's people that do front. Front like the looks.

00:39:55:26 - 00:40:30:02 Mike&Jon Yeah, exactly. There's people that do the looks, there's people that do that like the hard coding shirt. And so there's unicorns that do both full static, what do they call 9130, 147,000 software in San Francisco according to built in or the 147 for a full stack estimated starting pay $45,000 full stack pop. Well, because that's a big disparity what with what you're you're going to make either 40 grand a year going to make 130.

00:40:30:02 - 00:40:53:14 Mike&Jon What do you want to do. Depends of your half stack the can't afford of a small stack of pancakes, please. No. Do you, Do you how how hard is it to find a full stack candidate out there? Is it do you find that most full stack candidates are either they, they're either stronger on the front end of the the back end or like they know how to equally think?

00:40:53:14 - 00:41:14:10 Mike&Jon It's really hard to answer that question. Is it? Yeah. It's not like there's one there's one situation that's incredibly pervasive and you're consistently saying that like, yeah, people are full stack suck on the back end. I mean, everyone's going to their preferences, their strengths, things like that. So what kind of personalities are they? Super fun at parties. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:14:12 - 00:41:46:29 Mike&Jon Are you a full stack? Three. Yeah, I cloud developer. So is that like servers like their parent, even servers and stuff like that. It's in the cloud. They design, develop and maintain applications hosted on cloud platforms, forums. Well big tech. So based off of this whole list so far, tech is like the main focus. Yeah. People are coming in to they're not even coming in to trade yet.

00:41:47:02 - 00:42:20:28 Mike&Jon We haven't heard a single trade thing yet except for maybe coming from Croatian LinkedIn article. Probably just some echo article out there. Yeah. Is is trade or any trades on this list at all? See, no, see, I just have I have a hard time believing that. Did LinkedIn, did LinkedIn actually post it or is it LinkedIn is also a tech company.

00:42:20:28 - 00:42:46:16 Mike&Jon And so I feel like there's an inherent bias there, like they're trying to drive more positions onto LinkedIn that are in tech. There's big technology solutions company that posted this blog. but is ranking it, but it's ranking on Google Ultimate Top ten Future Proof Careers in 2024 Future for was there is there is there another website that we can get the top and what are we at now.

00:42:46:18 - 00:43:13:19 Mike&Jon Right. Like number eight seven developers number eight hey what's the next one. Right next. Wait, how much a cloud developer how much does a cloud developer get to get purchased? Seven average is 77. You don't really see anything. Is there a four on came out with that? How important is it to have 41k and like a company that matches and things like that.

00:43:15:00 - 00:43:42:08 Mike&Jon I've never been part of a company that has a401k match, so I'm not too sure. I guess in my experience it's not that important, Do you do for a1k match? Yeah, it's. I think it's important. It's important for people to be incentivized to not just keep the blinders on and look at today and tomorrow. What what revenue threshold do you think that companies should start considering?

00:43:42:08 - 00:44:10:27 Mike&Jon Do doing 401k match and benefits like that? I think once you get past a couple employees, maybe like three or four employees and because we had the conversation with like our payroll team as far as like, okay, like when is the right time to do like because initially we were kind of like subsidizing health care until we actually had a plan in place.

00:44:11:00 - 00:44:31:21 Mike&Jon And then once we got a plan in place, that's when it kind of transitioned. But like all that stuff, like I'm not the I'm not an authority on those things, and I'm sure I've made plenty of missteps. I'm just I would say as early as possible. yeah, Yeah. You want people to enjoy working where they work. You want them to know that they're taken care of.

00:44:31:21 - 00:44:50:14 Mike&Jon I think like health care benefits for one care. I think those things are all really important because it's, you know, show me. Don't tell me. Right? Yes, I have. They get paid. But like, do you care about other aspects of my life that aren't like, right here, right now? Do this? Yeah. Like dental or like. Yeah, and a call for one K.

00:44:50:16 - 00:45:22:25 Mike&Jon So small things. They go a long way in my mind. Kirsten might be sitting around, but I hate this fucking guy. I don't know. He wouldn't tell me if he did. I'm sure. At least I have a phone, kiddo. Yeah. Yeah. I hope you don't hate me, Kristen. Silent, silent fucking cricket game. Yeah, I, I It's because I don't really hear many companies within the industry talking about different types of benefits that they're offering, like staffing and stuff like that.

00:45:22:27 - 00:45:41:24 Mike&Jon Yeah, well, you've got the whole divide between like 1099 and W2 and that seems to be changing pretty quickly and like, what's legal, what's illegal, what's considered what? Again, I'm not an authority on any of that stuff, but I pay close attention. I know that I've got clients trying to figure it out right now. There was some recent legislation passed.

00:45:41:27 - 00:46:04:09 Mike&Jon If you are an authority on that topic and welcome you onto the show, come on in. We can talk about it. That's actually a good that's a good that would be a good episode to listen to. Yeah. I mean, there are they all are. But that would be like a really insightful one. Yeah. how much for a cloud developer was there?

00:46:04:09 - 00:46:26:16 Mike&Jon Like 77,007. Seven. What was what's after that summer nine Project Manager project. What kind of project? They are responsible for planning, organizing resources and ensuring that projects meet their goals within specified timelines. I mean, that is the most ambiguous. I mean, what kind of goddam project are you managing now? Yeah. Are you doing like a city planning project?

00:46:26:16 - 00:46:45:12 Mike&Jon I imagine a couple of roofs. It's a personality though, that you're hiring for then, because you're hiring somebody that knows how to like LEED knows how to like see through a task all the way without their hand being like, how? Right. That's like the person that they're looking for. What's that? I guess what's the average range for? How can you give an average range?

00:46:45:17 - 00:47:08:23 Mike&Jon There's no scope of work. yeah, because a project this is called 80 gram sugary, 80 gram, 80 gram for a commercial Commercial project manager. Yeah. We've got 47 facilities being built from the ground up. You're in demand. All of them for 80. You get 80 gram. No for a1k 80 gram. Yeah. Yeah. that's, that's pretty broad spectrum.

00:47:08:25 - 00:47:42:02 Mike&Jon Yeah. So what else. we talked about the ten most future proof jobs at the ten digital content creator. Digital content creator Zap J Boy. Yeah. What do they make? $52,550. It's going to say like 61,000. I mean, I think I've, I think I've seen people say 152, 99, 38, 99, 61. I think it's like right in the middle of those two.

00:47:42:04 - 00:48:05:00 Mike&Jon Yeah, Onlyfans is a little bit higher. Click the link and buy a digital creator or digital content creator, right? That's like, you know, everything that we're doing here. Yeah. Yeah. I would almost argue that that's bullshit because like, I don't know. I don't know.

00:48:05:03 - 00:48:26:23 Mike&Jon You know what I find? What do you find? Jonathan People don't know how to vertically move digital content creators. Well, I don't know what you mean by vertically move. So, yeah, like people think that, you know, you make content and then there's no vertical. Like, what's the next step other than creating the content? And I think people that don't get really creative with, you know, that position.

00:48:26:25 - 00:48:55:11 Mike&Jon Yeah, they'll think of like, okay, how do I, how do I, level up someone within their position for, you know, what, what are some of the positions that you have that you would promote people into within a century? So like our level one content writer got promoted to a content facilitation specialist. So essentially she's not only like helping out the content, but she's also managing the process.

00:48:55:14 - 00:49:25:17 Mike&Jon Yeah, improving the process, things like that. So some would say that there's like vertical movement within that, right? And then even offering just different. So for you, a prime example is like you brought on Christian Christian's doing content, but then you one, you invested into coaching, you invested into a studio. So you're thinking of how to like, push the things or at least provide some sort of space for them to grow vertically.

00:49:25:19 - 00:49:42:20 Mike&Jon Yeah, a lot of people fuck that up. They just don't think about it. They don't really consider it because they don't have time. Jonathan Yeah, if they don't have time, then they shouldn't be mad. When they don't perform, they don't have time. It's not their fault. They just don't have the time. It's hard. It's hard. It's a great excuse.

00:49:42:23 - 00:50:03:04 Mike&Jon No time is a great excuse. These are so our second core value to send solutions, not excuses. Exactly. Figure it out. Make it a priority. This has been fun. Yeah, I'm tired. You're tired? Tired. Thank you all for tuning in. Thank you to the great team over at Roofer. Thank you to Kristen. You've been a great help and thank you to Jonathan.

00:50:03:07 - 00:50:30:27 Mike&Jon Appreciate it. Shall we talk about next, throw it in the comments section below. You're watching the Mission Control podcast and manager John thank you so much for having me.