Pivoting for Good with Caroline Wood

The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

In today's episode, we delve into "Pivoting for Good". We discuss the impact of purpose-driven pivots, explore non-traditional success metrics, and offer practical steps for entrepreneurs considering meaningful changes.

This conversation aims to inspire and guide solopreneurs towards more humane, ethical, and sustainable business practices. Join us as we uncover how pivoting can be a powerful force for good.

In this conversation, we talked about:

• Her recent Pivoting Summit and what inspired her to share these experiences from pivoters
• ‘Pivoting for Good’, a significant conversation among pivoters
• The trend to wanting to measure success using non-traditional metrics that go beyond mere financial gains
• Practical steps for entrepreneurs who are considering a pivot
• and much more...

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Intro with music NEW 2022: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle.

If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.

Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client.

You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing.

Caroline intro: Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of pivoting. It's not an official P of the seven Ps of humane marketing. But that's the topic today. And I guess Pivoting is kind of a combination of all the seven P's of Humane Marketing. As always, if you're a regular here, you already know the seven P's of Humane Marketing.

But if you're new, this is your first time [00:03:00] here, a big warm welcome. You can download your one page marketing plan with the seven piece of humane marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business.

So it's not. Prescriptive, but it's reflective. So today I invited my colleague, Caroline Woods, to talk to us about pivots because she just recently hosted a summit slash event called the Pivot Narratives, where she featured many different pivotal stories from fellow entrepreneurs, including mine. So I thought I'd invite her for a conversation about pivoting for good.

Caroline is an introvert who supports other introverts to redesign their businesses so that their business allows them to thrive, [00:04:00] rather than just survive. Ditching the idea that they have to pretend to be an extrovert to get ahead. Caroline is a corporate escapee, having spent 20 years working as a chartered accountant, working for large businesses and not for profits.

She has wound her way around the world, working in Australia, her home country, the UK, Namibia, and Laos. In today's episode and conversation, we talked about her recent Pivoting Summit and what inspired her to share these experiences from Pivoters. The concept of pivoting for good, a significant conversation among the pivoters that participated the trend to wanting to measure success using non traditional metrics that go beyond mere financial gains, practical steps for entrepreneurs who are considering a pivot.

And much more before we dive in, allow me one last plug for the Marketing Like We're [00:05:00] Human program that starts on March 14th and is actually a great fit for pivoters. Okay, I realized I said one last time already on the last episode. So sorry about the super last plug. So Marketing Like We're Human, aka The Client Resonator is my flagship program that I've been running since 2019.

If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you already know the seven P's of humane marketing, and that's exactly what we're working through in the program. So, passion, personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion and partnership. That's the framework that we follow. And besides in depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics.

Even though I say it's about the Marketing Foundation, I often have participants who are in Not new to business. So they are ready for a pivot. They might have been in business [00:06:00] already for a while and just kind of going through the motions or not feeling happy with their business anymore or just realizing it's not what they're meant to do.

It's not their calling. And so oftentimes I have participants like that in the group. That want to create their life's work and from the ground up, do it right this time so that when they do go out and market, it comes from within. So that's what we do in the program. We go deep and we create the foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you.

It's part self development, part very pragmatic business best practices. It's part lift. Part right brain, part mind and heart. And if you go to humane. marketing forward slash program, there's a great number of testimonials and even whole case studies with videos from past participants. So go [00:07:00] and check out the details at humane.

marketing forward slash program. And yes, we are starting on March 14th. 2024, so quickly get in touch with me so we can book a chat. You can either book a call directly on the program page or connect with me via LinkedIn or send me an email at sarah at humane dot marketing. I can't wait to hear from you.

All right, let's dive into the conversation with Caroline about pivoting for good.

video1858641342: Hi, Caroline. So good to see you again. We haven't seen each other for a long time, so it's good to hang out on Zoom and obviously then put it on the podcast and on YouTube. But for us, it's just the two of us, right? Which is fun. Good to have you. I'm happy to have a conversation with you again. Yeah, exactly.

Wonderful. And it's always fun to see when talking to people on the other side, right? You're [00:08:00] in a t shirt and I'm in like my poncho. It's quite warm here tonight. Yeah. Good tell. Wonderful. So we, we decided to talk about pivoting for good because you just hosted a summit around pivoting where you were so kind to invite me and share my story of the pivot to humane marketing away from my LinkedIn consulting business and then to gentle marketing and then to humane marketing.

And so as I was kind of reading through the other stories of Pivoters I was thinking, Hey, that actually makes a really good subject for a conversation on the podcast. And, you know, you make the perfect guest for it. So you are we go way back. Yeah, we go way back. We have had prior exchanges.

Mainly related to being introverts and, and being [00:09:00] in business and, and marketing and all of that. So it's good to catch up with you. So let's go to that summit and maybe kind of lens of pivoting for good. What stands out to you now that the summit is over, do you feel like there was a bit of a theme related to.

Pivoting for good and maybe I can define to listeners. What I mean by that. Yeah, it's kind of like coming from the traditional business model of like, just making money, paying the bills individualistic to a more. Out there a model, meaning like, it's not just me for my business, but I'm actually wanting to contribute to change.

So that's what I think for this podcast we define as pivoting for good. So, did you notice kind of a theme in your summit from people's stories? It was definitely, I [00:10:00] think, a theme of pivoting for good.

And there's some people like yourself who haven't really defined how they're going to, how they want to make the world a better place. You know, that sort of idea of improving things for the communities they're in. So I think there are a couple of people like that, like Louise, who's from Leap32 Marketing, very much wants to work with companies who have a purpose led.

I think she's probably one of the most obvious ones. I think the other thing that really stood out for me is people pivoting, pivoting to pivot businesses that really reflected their values and so trying to show that their values coming through in their work and hopefully then influencing the world that they're sort of operating in to try and make, to try and ensure their values are actually being.

Reflected in those communities that they're working with, I guess is how I would [00:11:00] put it. So not always having a really clearly defined, this is how I help my community. But very, almost all of them had a very clear, I want my values to be reflected in my work. And so through values, hopefully I can make the place, you know, just a little bit better than what, what it was like when I, you know, when they started in business.

Yeah, that's interesting because that's kind of the, I did a video recently on the individual in the community, because that's kind of if you look at astrology, that's kind of the theme of the time of Aquarius where it's very, Much individualistic and saying, I want to do what I want to do and my values and all of that.

Then it's also a time of, well, how do I, given how, who I am fit into the community. And it feels like. Maybe that's the first step you know, really expressing our values and not just being kind of defined, but [00:12:00] by our clients, because let's say 10 years ago, it was all about, you know, adapting to the clients, right?

The client was the king and all that. And now it's like, well, what if, if I start with myself first and put my values first? So. It seems like there's a journey of saying, okay, I want to do a business how I want to do it. And then the next step will be like, well, how does that contribute to community at large to humanity at large?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing that came through was sort of, it still ties into that individualistic idea, but then taking it further. is there are people who, you know, like myself, where I want to see introverts do well, but there are also quite a few people who took part who want to help other HSP people thrive.

So very much seeing community in that sort of sense, that they want people in that particular [00:13:00] community of HSP to thrive. Or for me, you know, I've said introverts, so there's also that It's sort of individualistic because it's who you are and wanting others who are like you to thrive. But in a way also building community in those similar people, right?

Yes. Yeah. And groups that don't do well or haven't, haven't been valued perhaps as much as society. Yeah. I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of neurodivergent people as well, that's kind of, you know, a new thing in the business world that there is movements of neurodivergent people. And so I think that's another, yeah, you're right.

It's kind of like, okay, we finally can say how we're wired and who we are and let's find. Common who are, who are just like us and create communities with those people. Yeah. You're very right. Yeah. And I [00:14:00] think, I think helping them as well to be seen and valued by society. So thinking about those HSP people often have been HSP people, highly sensitive people have often been seen as too sensitive.

And now perhaps we're seeing, hopefully starting to see their sensitivity as. Something that really adds to the world that we're in and so how do we help them get, you know, get themselves out into the world and share their, their sensitivity better. I think it's. It's an interesting, interesting idea of community.

And I really believe that helps in this paradigm shift that kind of goes from a very, very masculine energy to a more feminine energy and HSPs kind of have this gift to bring out the feminine energy, right? So it belongs to that shift as well. Yeah. Maybe can you pick like one or two stories [00:15:00] that really.

Stood out to you and that you would love to share here. I think probably two. So one of the ones I thought was really interesting is Nadia Finas, who went from being a business coach and she now helps people who are shy like herself and have a really, you know, she has a, quite a, her voice is quite high pitched, I guess you'd say, and I think, you know, she's in the past, she's really struggled with her voice and she struggled with shyness.

And so I think that's been really interesting. It's a really interesting story for me of moving away from the online business world on business coaching, which I think she was getting very jaded about and then coming around this idea where she can help shy people instead and bringing a lot of her. You know, I can see with the work that she does online that she brings a lot of those skills that she got as a business coach [00:16:00] to then helping get her voice out about how shy people can be supported in the workplace.

So I really liked her story, particularly I think

you often see it going the other way of people moving from say a life coach to a business coach. And there's nothing wrong with that, but I think, yeah, that scene is a much more natural path going perhaps sort of in the other direction, I think was really interesting. Yeah. And then I really like Ruth Pound White's story that, you know, she's actually, she had a really successful copywriting business.

And she gave that away to be a business coach and a soulful, you know, helping people with their, their sales and doing it in a soulful way. And I think that, again, is really interesting, I think, but for me, both of them, that whole giving up something that's earning you money, doing well, that society probably sees and values you doing, [00:17:00] moving into, you know, completely giving that up and doing something new.

I think they're the two that. I think for me, it's the courage of giving up something successful to start again is really powerful. Yeah, yeah, it makes me laugh because I remember when I first put out the Marketing Like We're Human book and then was on these typical marketing podcasts and they would always ask me about Conversion rates.

And, you know, does this actually work? Do we have proof that humane marketing works? And kind of my counter question is, was always like, well, the question is more like, does the traditional marketing still work for you? Can you still sleep at night? Right. Doing the things you're doing now. And so it's like, well, if you're, if it still works for you, then yeah.

Why give it up? Right. But if you just know deep inside, well, this is actually not working for me anymore, then, then you need the courage to leave it behind and, and pivot to [00:18:00] something else. Yeah. I think that's really the thing about a pivot. Like, okay. Sometimes it might be a forced pivot. Which kind of was, you know, the story for me with the trademark issue moving away from gentle marketing.

Okay. That was a forced pivot. I'm glad it happened now looking back. But then, yeah. So, so what would you say? Are, are, are there different reasons we just mentioned one or two, the forced one, and then the one where it's kind of like, well, something's not working for me. Is there another reason that you noticed why people are moving away from or pivoting to something else?

Louise, who I mentioned before from Leap 32, I think she was probably, I think she's probably the only person in the whole project who pivoted because she thought there was more. [00:19:00] So I thought that was, hers was really interesting in that regard, in that it wasn't that she was particularly unhappy with in the role she was in, but she could see that there was more.

And I think that's probably the other. The other reason is that they, you can see there are possibilities to get more out of your life and to get more out of your business. Yeah. And hopefully, and in her case, to give back more to community than what she was doing in her old job. Yeah. I think a lot of the others are forced.

I mean, I would even say in some ways, You know, both of our pivots were forced in terms of feeling so uncomfortable with what we were doing. It was also almost our you know, when you stop doing your traditional marketing and I stopped doing Facebook ads, it was very much, you're almost forced because it doesn't feel right.

Yeah. Because of ethical reasons, right? Yeah. Whereas some people are forced because, you know, [00:20:00] Celia, who shared her story, I mean, she probably could have kept going, but she had a co working space and obviously COVID hit and there was no co working. So it gave her an opportunity to really reassess what she was doing.

So, you know, different types of force, I think. Mm hmm. Yeah. You mentioned about the, is there more this question I think for me in the LinkedIn, when I transitioned out of the LinkedIn consulting, I think that's what, what it was for me, like, is this all I'm ever going to do is, is it more? So it wasn't like more in terms of, can I make more money somewhere else?

Yeah. It's like. In my life, is this my role or is there something else, something deeper? And I guess that's also what I'm hinting at towards, you know, the pivoting for good. I think a lot of people feel this calling right now for more. How can I [00:21:00] contribute to this shift right now? With my business, and isn't there a pivot that I should be making right now?

So, yeah, I, I'd agree that it's probably those three is like, is there more? Another one is a forced pivot and, and the third one is more like, well, what can I let go of in something else? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that, that really resonates in terms of what I just said, you know, is there more? So. It's not usually money did it was that a common theme as well that most of the people didn't pivot because.

You know, it's like, well, I want to make even more money. And that's the reason for the pivot. I guess the question is like, would people still measure success with just money or were people measuring success in another way? No, I don't think [00:22:00] anyone measured success through money or maybe one. Maybe Amber McHugh did.

And hers was a forced pivot. So she had, she had a photography, Boudoir photography company, and again, COVID shut them down. And so they used that first year of the COVID to actually decide to really, really invest in their company and grow it significantly. After cover, but I think she was probably the only person who even, you know, thought, you know, had a money as a measure of her success for everyone else.

It was much more about giving back to community or doing work that was more interesting to them. So that's all that individualistic side, but, you know, what. What work feels good to them to do. Right. And yeah, I think that would probably be the main two, actually, is that doing work [00:23:00] they enjoy and being able to give back were the two main measures of success that got mentioned in the project.

Yeah. Kind of does in their piece as well. Right. It's just being happy in your, in your work rather than feeling like you're doing something that is not aligned. That's kind of the, yeah, the sense I got from most of the stories as well. And I think working with people who they were aligned with was another one.

So having clients that are in alignment. Yeah, so I mean, I guess similar to you, finding people who do marketing, there's a few other people in the project that do marketing, and it was very much about finding ways of doing it ethically and working with people who want to do marketing in a way that Feels good, you know, isn't that that more aggressive masculine marketing that we see so often.

So that definitely came through quite a [00:24:00] few people. Yeah. Another topic that comes to mind is because it's, it's 1 of my kind of like. Yeah, it's really important to me is the collaboration instead of competition. So, yeah, did you feel like there was also a bit of a pivot towards more, let's see how we can collaborate?

As entrepreneurs, let's see how I can tap into, because most of these business owners, entrepreneurs already had existing experience. So was that a priority for people to pivot into kind of like, yeah, more community building or more collaboration with others? What, what did you see? No, I don't, I didn't actually see much of that, which was really interesting for me because.

You know, over the past year as I've [00:25:00] been, you know, sort of wending my way through my own messy pivot, I think community and collaboration has really come up as a theme for me. Yeah. That's one of the reasons why I organized the Pivot Project, that I really, I like the, I love the idea of sharing a range of voices because I think we gain so much from hearing how different people are doing things and their thoughts on them, that it can help us to shape our own ideas.

Cheers. Cheers. Around how we want to do our businesses, how we want to interact with the world, how we want to make it bigger and bigger and better, you know, bigger, not necessarily in a money sense, but bigger in terms of maybe bigger hearted but I don't it's really interesting. I don't think community came through.

In the actual stories, you know, I certainly saw it as part of the pivot project that people really enjoyed that they, you know, I've had messages from people who took part that [00:26:00] one of the things that they've really got out of that is they've met some really fantastic new people who, you know, who that they were in the project with, and I, you know, that's been really exciting for me.

So, Yeah. Yeah. Not so much in their own stories, but definitely as part of being in the project. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I, I know that, I only know that Andy Mort who was also featured, he has his own community and, and it's important to him and I do, I don't know if anybody else, yeah. Has that or it's important to them, but, but I'm curious about your own pivot.

So, so tell us more about, you know, what's been going on for you, for you over the last year or so. I think for me,

I've done a number of different things. I started off doing sort of Facebook ads and then [00:27:00] some tech VA work. And now really settling on, well, I wouldn't say settled. So the business strategy is definitely uses the best, it's the best use of my skills. I think bringing together my accounting, my planning skills, my problem solving.

And then for me, I think over the past year, the real pivot has been around who I help. And I think for me, part of that has been, you know, I say I help introverts, but I've been realizing over the past year that that is. That's too big a group and that there are some other important things that fit into that group for me a big one.

And probably because I've been spending too much time reading your stuff is ethical marketing. And that, you know, it's really important to me that the introverts I work with share that ethical marketing, humane marketing perspective. I don't want to work with people [00:28:00] who are only there for the money. And we all need money.

I think money is wonderful, but there's something more to what they want to get from their business is part of that. And then certainly overthinking, I think, is another bit that I've struggled with. And I think that's where I also bring a set of skills into helping people who overthink with planning.

But definitely the big one has been that ethical because I've seen, I've seen people who are introverts. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're ethical. I think it's really easy to, to label yourself. So I label myself as an introvert, and then they are, because I, I, you know, I want ethical marketing that all introverts are going to be into ethical marketing as well, which of course is completely not true.

And I think it's getting that better sense of who I want to work with. And support that's been this really that last year, the pivot of the last year has been really trying to work out who that person is or who [00:29:00] those people are that I want to work with and support. Yeah, it's so interesting. I'm just thinking back to, yeah, my first podcast that was also, you know, interviewing introverts.

And I think that's where you and I met for the first time. And it's true back then that was like a big thing. Oh my God, you're saying out loud that you're an introvert, right? And we thought, okay, all introverts think alike, and then, you know, obviously we noticed, oh, that's not true at all. And it really kind of confirms this, this idea that I say that to make your worldview, your niche, rather than just have a niche of introverts.

Well, your worldview is, let's do things ethically. And then that. Becomes the niche within the introverts, right? So it's every introvert, but just the ones that align with your worldview. And I think it's an evolution, right? It's [00:30:00] just like, this is, this is becoming more and more important. And so it's, it's interesting to hear.

And I noticed the same thing for me. I'm like, well, yeah, it used to be introverts. Definitely not true anymore, because I know a lot of introverts where I'm like. No, it's not, no, no resonance. And the reason is because we don't have the same worldview. It's really, I think for me, it's still introverts because I'm probably ambiverts.

I think people who are really extroverted, I don't do as well with, you know, like my work style doesn't work as well with them. Sometimes I would never work with an extrovert, but yeah, I think my, my work, how I work. It's what attracts introverts, but it's the worldview that then drives the other bitch. So it's sort of bringing the, the, how I work with the, how I think together to make it a much more [00:31:00] aligned business for me.

Right. I started to call my ideal clients, deep thinkers, because I feel like It doesn't matter whether they're introverted or extroverted, that's just how they recharge their battery. But if, if they are deep thinkers, thinking about things deeply, thinking about, you know, our current challenges. So not just thinking about themselves.

That's to me is kind of the definition and, and oftentimes they are introverts, but not always. So, yeah, it's just, I've been thinking for me, the word I want to bring into my work. is that I really love is thoughtful because I really like the duality of the word that it's got that deep thinker part in it that they're thoughtful about their business and intentional.

And I also really like the idea of thoughtful in terms of kindness and thinking about clients. So that's sort of, I think where I'm heading. Yeah. And I think that combines that. Can be an extrovert and be a deep [00:32:00] thinker. So, you know, probably does, I would work with extroverts who fit into that category, but then also that I do want to see a kinder world.

And that's where the other part of that word comes from. I like that. Yeah. Very much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting how, how much power and resonance words have. Right. And obviously that's, that's a big thing in marketing and communication.

Let's kind of wrap up and talk a little bit about, well, you know, if somebody is listening and they're like, Oh my God. Yeah. That's exactly what has been happening over the last year or so. Where would you say, where do you start? Where did you start? Because again, it can take a lot of courage to, you know, move into another direction or let something go that has been working well, or maybe it hasn't been working well, but it's the only thing you have.

So [00:33:00] yeah. What were your first steps? And then a new direction. I think for me, I was, and I was the only one who talked about this on the project that for me, I just, I got so out of alignment with my business that I actually went back, went back to work and got a job. And so that I was financially secure.

And for me, that's one of the most, I think that's one of the really important things in making a, I don't want to call it a courageous pivot, but in making a pivot that perhaps doesn't feel as accepted by family or whoever it is. You need to have that money piece. Yeah, sorted to be creative, like if you can't pay your bills, I think it's really difficult.

You know, to tap, to be able to take that step, you know, if you're worried about money, then you're going to make unaligned decisions in the name of money. And I still do that today. I think I still take on clients that I, [00:34:00] I shouldn't because I think money still feeds into that. I'm getting better at saying no to people, but it's, yeah, so definitely for me it was money.

And then really, I think my best advice is just to start journaling about what you wanted to actually look like. That it's amazing what happens when you start to get things down on paper, and then start to look for other people in that world. So, you know, for me, it was starting to find people like you, like Ruth Poundwhite, other people who are doing, you know, who have that world, similar worldview to I do, that I do, and looking at how they do their business and what they're sharing about their thoughts on how, how you can do business in a way that feels much better for you.

And hopefully it's much better for your community. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought up the money piece. I think that is, I think it's actually a very courageous pivot because there is so much stigma around, you know, business owners going back to work. And I think that is the, [00:35:00] yeah, the best. I mean, most courageous thing you can do because you're right, you can't, you can't even think if you don't have that financial safety.

So, so don't start planning in that scarcity mode because it's not, it's not going to work. So yeah, I've actually seen quite, I've seen quite a few bigger business names sharing that they've gone and taken jobs. This.

So either they've, you know, they've become a fractional marketing officer for someone that that kind of role and I really, I really like that they're sharing that and hopefully taking what I hadn't seen that, but that's really, yeah, that's really nice to hear because it's true that and I think especially, you know, the big businesses, they, I think there has been a huge kind of shift in terms of, you know, You know, what works and what doesn't work and it's especially the big businesses with also with big [00:36:00] expenses, right?

Well, things are not working anymore. Like they used to before the pandemic. So yeah, so I'm really hoping that message gets out that actually. It's okay to take a job if that's what you need to do. Yeah. Yeah, in this season. And there'll be another season where you come up with a fabulous business that you love rather than trying to, trying to make something that doesn't support you succeed.

I think that's, I think you might as well have a job in that case. If you're doing a business that doesn't light you up, then you might as well have a job. It's probably a lot easier. You can shut off at the, you know, the end of the day, hopefully. Yeah. It's the same thing that people who are wanting to start their first business.

I always say, you know, build it while you still are on the job. So you have that financial security. Because otherwise it just, yeah, it really is scary. So, [00:37:00] and I think at the end of the marketing, like we're human book, I also mentioned that in terms of shifting to a different way of marketing. Because what happened for me, that was like a big drop, right?

When you shift from the, the kind of the pushy marketing stuff and the pushy launches and all of that into a more humane approach to marketing. And right now I'm, you know, onboarding for the Marketing Like We're Human program, and I'm having conversations with people, right? So yeah, it takes a lot more time.

And so there, there's going to be fewer people. So obviously there's a shift also in, in the income and you need to, you need to adjust for that. I mean, you can't just do it overnight. So, so kind of like. Yeah, maybe still keep doing what works well because of the money safety and then slowly shift out of it as you grow the other side.

Yeah, and you can definitely, I think, you know, [00:38:00] with marketing, there's always an option to even just change it slightly. So you start to, you know, if you get rid of the particularly masculine element of your marketing, that particular aggressive. You can still do reasonably well while you're moving it to become more how you want it to be.

Exactly, yeah, it's still a small shift, yeah. Yeah, but everything doesn't have to be a big, right, I'm not doing this anymore, I'm only doing this. There's definitely a gradual move that you can take if that's what's going to make you, going to be able to support you financially as you make the shift. Yeah, so good.

Any, any other, I think the question is in terms of the future, where do you see the future of business, humane business? Do you feel like there is going to be more and more a move [00:39:00] towards this more aligned and, and ethical business? Do you see that in Australia, for example? I think I was but I think with the change in economic condition conditions that it's meant that people have right people feel less like it's a you said before it's a whole scarcity so because people are struggling to find clients.

Your businesses are struggling. Things feel like they're scarce. That means that you, I think you tend to flip back into perhaps not so ethical marketing that has worked for you in the past. That, yeah, I think, I think the economic conditions might slow the movement down a little bit. That's for sure.

Unfortunately, people will be less, less willing to take risks. Which, you know, you can completely understand. Yeah. Yeah. And it's [00:40:00] unfortunately always like that when things are back, well, people are scared and we, we go back to the things that work and that create immediate income. Right. Yeah. I think my hope is though that it will be.

You know, we've taken two steps forward and we're only going one back. So, you know, we're always moving forward, even if it's at a much slower pace and perhaps we would ideally like, but it's still a move, you know, it's still better than it was. Yeah. Yeah. It's baby steps. Like you said. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's leave it on that positive tone.

Thanks so much for, for sharing your insights. Caroline, that's, this has been delightful. I always ask one question and that is, what are you grateful for today and this week? At the moment I'm just really, so my two dogs have been quite sick, so I'm just very grateful that they're healthy this week and I'm enjoying their [00:41:00] company and then I can hear them making crying noises in the background as we talk because they're showing the back room and they want to come out.

Yeah. I'll let you go back to them. I'm glad you, you saying that because I, I remember like, even like weeks back when we exchanged emails, you were saying that they were sick, so they must have been sick for a while now. Yeah. I mean, I've got terminal illnesses, but we hit a good, hit a good patch this week.

So you have to take those wins. Hmm. Yeah. Wonderful to hang out. Thanks so much for being on the show today. Thanks for having me, Sarah.

Caroline outro: Thanks so much for listening. I hope you got great value out of this episode, especially if you're considering your own pivot. You can find out more about Caroline and her work at quietlyextraordinary. com and Caroline has actually collated all the stories into an ebook, which you can now download at [00:42:00] quietlyextraordinary.

com forward slash the dash. Pivot dash narratives. So go there and get inspired by all these pivot stories. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? Find out more at humane. marketing. com forward slash circle. We'd love to have you there. you're actually in the midst of your own pivot.

Have a look at the Marketing Like We're Human program and see whether that might help you right now. Humane dot marketing forward slash program. You find the show notes of this episode at Humane dot marketing forward slash HM184. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the Humane Business Manifesto, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a [00:43:00] generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon!