Are Inclusive Schools Even Possible? Part 2

The Odyssey: Parenting. Caregiving. Disability.

Meaningful inclusion is possible, if we’re being honest though, it’s so rare that most folks don’t even know what it looks like.

In part two of this episode on inclusion in public schools (be sure to check out part one!), Erin Croyle has educator and advocate Trina Allen break down what co-teaching is, how it works, and what can be done to make truly inclusive education a reality.

The Odyssey: Parenting. Caregiving. Disability.

The Center for Family Involvement at VCU School of Education's Partnership for People with Disabilities provides informational and emotional support to people with disabilities and their families. All of our services are free. We just want to help. We know how hard this can be because we're in it with you.

SHOW NOTES:

Talia A. Lewis' Working Definiciton of Ableism.

How much are students with disabilities actually included? This breakdown demonstrates there is much work to be done.

National Center for Education Statistics releases various annual reports and as well as topical studies.

More on the Ithaca City School District.

Inclusion benefits EVERYone.

Learn more about the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).

TRANSCRIPT:

01:00:07:11 - 01:00:39:01

Erin Croyle

Welcome to The Odyssey. Parenting, Caregiving, Disability. I'm Erin Croyle, the creator and host. The Odyssey podcast explores how our lives change when a loved one has a disability. I joined the caregiver club 14 years ago when my first child was born with Down syndrome. My journey weaved its way here, working for the Center for Family Involvement at VCU's Partnership for People with Disabilities.

01:00:39:03 - 01:01:09:07

Erin Croyle

This podcast highlights the joys and hardships we face. Celebrating how amazing the odyssey of parenting, caregiving and disability can be. While examining the spiderweb of complex issues, we're tangled in, The fight for meaningful inclusion in our schools is a struggle for so many of us. In our last episode, I spoke with special education teacher advocate, activist and parent Trina Allen.

01:01:09:09 - 01:01:31:21

Erin Croyle

We left off talking about how gut wrenching advocating for an inclusive education can be, especially as our kids get older. And we're picking up right there with Trina telling us not only that it can be done, but how we can do it.

01:01:31:23 - 01:01:47:19

Erin Croyle

I know of a number of parents who have children who stop working and are like full on tutors for their kids to keep them on that diploma track. The thing is, like a kid with Down syndrome is one kid with Down syndrome.

01:01:47:22 - 01:01:50:04

Trina Allen

Thank you!

01:01:50:06 - 01:02:17:19

Erin Croyle

Yes, Autism is one kid with autism. CP And so when you have a student who is at a grade level in grade school trying to do seventh grade math, I don't know as a parent where the line is. I think that our schools, once we get to a certain level, it's not parents failing, but it's their schools not offering enough options for kids with more significant needs.

01:02:17:19 - 01:02:34:24

Erin Croyle

Instead, they just shove them into a cookie cutter classroom. I don't know. I guess I don't even know what my question is. All I know is that.

Trina Allen

Fix it!

Erin Croyle

They reach a certain age and there's no choice anymore, right? No other option anymore.

Trina Allen

So while we're on the fight for inclusion, it cannot be on the back of our individual child and listening to what he needs in the moment is the biggest fight of ableism. Listening to him is the biggest fight of Abel's that you will ever do with him. The issue of what needs to happen is that that math class needs to not be based on an outcome of these particular things.

01:03:03:03 - 01:03:27:24

Trina Allen

That math class needs to be structured on. These are the standards, and every single kid in it is at a different place and it needs to be supported in that way. And so do I think it can be done? my God. Math is like the easiest. You know, it becomes more complicated in like history and English, but it doesn't have to be if the design is universal.

01:03:28:01 - 01:03:47:17

Trina Allen

Now, that's a lot of curriculum, though. That's a lot of things that need to be made and change, and that curriculum needs to be not adapted for your son. That curriculum needs to be created with him and created with the kid at a different level and created with a kid at the different level and created with the kid in a different level.

01:03:47:19 - 01:04:27:00

Trina Allen

And it needs to be individualized. And that is doable with time and space. And what I do like about the current district that, you know, that we both are dealing with is that's the goal. And when the systems have not created all of those levels of curriculum and are displayed by the slide show and are displayed in all those quiet ways that are as equal and that are that his production is as integrated and valued as what they expectation is that his production is the expectation.

01:04:27:00 - 01:04:54:03

Trina Allen

Right. And that there are multiple other children in the class with interesting and independent and specialized production. That model is doable. You know, it's so doable and I can see it and I know how to do it. I just need some time and I know that other teachers want that. And with all liberatory struggles, we need to understand that we are not working.

01:04:54:03 - 01:05:25:24

Trina Allen

For now, boys. We have to harm reduce in the now, right, Because it can't be on the back of our own children. But to know that we are creating a world in which that loves them better is important. All of those kids in the class that sees what a truly universal design lesson is are benefited right, whether they're disabled or neurotypical or not.

01:05:26:01 - 01:05:37:10

Trina Allen

I think that that is happening. It's just not happening fast enough and it's not happening in every classroom. It depends on the teacher. The teacher. It depends on the there needs to be a good teacher herself.

01:05:37:12 - 01:05:40:05

Erin Croyle

yeah, absolutely. And that doesn't exist everywhere.

01:05:40:09 - 01:05:48:10

Trina Allen

No. And in most places it doesn't. And most places pull out of teaching is what they're just talking about. Reasons for it. They say, Coach Jane, you're talking about racism.

01:05:48:12 - 01:05:57:10

Erin Croyle

And what in fact, I think I think briefly, I think it's important because I believe that there are going to be people listening who don't even know what a co teaching model is. Do you want to explain that?

01:05:57:15 - 01:06:47:11

Trina Allen

Yes. Okay. You're right. Okay. So there are multiple ways in which co teaching can look well we talk about co teaching is just like term is meaningless unless we're talking about the individual place in which it's practice. When I say co teaching and I actually mean it as opposed to placement, I mean a classroom with two teachers who create the lessons together who are based off of whatever it is that you're trying to teach, whether it be art or history or math or whatever, so that you are creating it together in a universal design, meaning that every standard from pre-K to 12th grade So you're going to have some kids that go are reading at

01:06:47:11 - 01:07:32:01

Trina Allen

the 12th grade level, you better hit them right? You are making the instruction to meet an understanding at each space. Right? And that I expected outcomes are somewhere on that distribution and you don't pick which one is right. You just portfolio out there where that kid is right and you teach them. The next thing we can talk about seventh grade standards and we can say, yes, this is where we're hoping that kids are at with the understanding that not everyone's going to be at that place and with the understanding that some kids might be in ninth grade and some kids might be a fifth grade.

01:07:32:04 - 01:07:51:01

Trina Allen

And that is fine for the kids at fifth grade, we're looking at the sixth grade standards for the kids. At ninth grade, we're looking at the 10th grade standards. So we're moving them where they want to go. And also based on their personal needs, let's say they really hate math and they're just getting through it. But my God, they love English.

01:07:51:01 - 01:08:23:13

Trina Allen

So, you know, let's let's push them a little harder on that. Let's show them all this wealth of information that they're very interested. It's individualized based both on where they're at in that particular subject and also personal understanding and ways in which they learn. And it also needs to be, if it's a student who is not speaking and needs to be completely accessible with their AC, and it needs to be provided in multiple output ways, everything needs to be using the technology assistance that they need and have, and it needs to be titrated to their individual.

01:08:23:13 - 01:08:57:07

Trina Allen

And that is a big ask for Koti to write. That's just one lesson and I think I've said a lot. So is it doable in every time and every way? If you're teaching five different periods and you have 100 kids and no, it's really, really hard to do that, especially when you're often not giving a co teacher or when people misunderstand the model and think that the co teacher is to adapt the work, that there is an expected work.

01:08:57:09 - 01:09:24:02

Trina Allen

And it's this narrow standard that you're teaching for the class and then everything else is an adaptation you make, you do with your kids that is not co teaching, that is placement in a generic classroom. It needs to be the curriculum needs to be created with guidelines at everyone's level. Otherwise kids fall through the cracks, right, right. Or disabled or not.

01:09:24:04 - 01:09:58:14

Trina Allen

And that co teaching model is great. It also, in my opinion, needs to have it can't just be one student that is multiple disabled, has higher support needs in a class that needs to be civil cohorts, right? Because anybody that feels like radically different, unless they have the either care, but if they have a personality that is more sensitive or self-conscious, you know, like anxiety based, they need to feel like they are part of a collective as well, that there's matching in in peers as well.

01:09:58:18 - 01:10:11:23

Trina Allen

Yeah. Need to feel a sense of belonging again. And honestly, the environment needs to change as well. You're talking about folks with sensory needs. The typical classroom is.

01:10:12:00 - 01:10:15:06

Erin Croyle

fluorescent lights and the acoustics.

01:10:15:08 - 01:10:38:16

Trina Allen

It needs to change. We can make modifications that I tried to in my classroom. I get a swing, I put up things and the lights and the fire marshal tells me to take them down, make up, not looking. No, I'm kidding. I get fire safe ones, right? I have the tag and the fire. Right. You can't change walls.

01:10:38:18 - 01:10:46:02

Erin Croyle

Right? If you don't have windows, you can find ways to provide light. If you have windows, you can get shades that make the light not so bright.

01:10:46:04 - 01:10:46:21

Trina Allen

Right?

01:10:46:23 - 01:11:00:03

Erin Croyle

I still remember reading somewhere, you know, a teacher who really decorated the classroom and had all these glittery things. And there was a student in there with sensory issues and the blinking was really just triggering for them.

01:11:00:03 - 01:11:00:11

Trina Allen

Yeah.

01:11:00:17 - 01:11:30:12

Erin Croyle

Like you have to really see the whole classroom. And Trina, before I forget, I just have to say, the way that you talked about my son, I think is so important because students deserve their teachers to see them for who they are. The way that you see my son, that connection and that being able to understand, most people would just see a kid with Down's syndrome behavior issues that don't want to see in school.

01:11:30:14 - 01:11:38:12

Erin Croyle

You get to know your students to know that actually Arlo wants to be successful and feel good. You know that about him.

01:11:38:14 - 01:11:39:02

Trina Allen

my God.

01:11:39:04 - 01:11:40:03

Erin Croyle

how your you're body.

01:11:40:03 - 01:12:12:06

Trina Allen

That anybody that doesn't see that right away has been horribly trained by our society not to see it. It is a paradox. If I had to rely on what my students said to know who they were, I'd be in a world of hurt, you know, like that empathy that like who we are. It's so funny too, because teachers and we spend so much time, like often times graduate and myself to make connections with kids, you know, not congratulating myself, but like, yeah, hey, I made that in with that kid and good.

01:12:12:06 - 01:12:26:01

Trina Allen

And I didn't know how, but realistically, they do it all the time. Do you want to talk about kids who are forced to know the adults around them? Disabled kids, especially non-speaking kids, are the ones to ask.

01:12:26:03 - 01:12:45:17

Erin Croyle

It's interesting. I recently I had someone asked me and this is something that comes up periodically because students with disabilities have such vast needs that sometimes it doesn't feel appropriate. So I think a lot of times parents, especially in younger years or grade school years, sometimes our kids have to use a diaper way later than others.

01:12:45:18 - 01:13:06:01

Trina Allen

my God. Yeah, right. Yeah, 100%. And some people will always need dollars. Some people will always need a bathroom assistance for the rest of their life. And that is okay that they should be in charge of who, when, why, how, and what. And if you want to get on a real rant, talk to me about the specifics of that.

01:13:06:01 - 01:13:38:14

Trina Allen

In a multiple disabled classroom in which no agency is enough. And I when we talk about body fascism, when we talk about eugenics, when you relate to all of the things that people might need, all of the things that people might need in a daily care kind of way, it's important to me the lack of humanity we give folks.

01:13:38:16 - 01:13:46:24

Erin Croyle

I completely agree. I mean, the lack of adult changing tables, rooms that are, you know, accessible, available, available there.

01:13:47:01 - 01:14:04:19

Trina Allen

That there are stairs when people use a wheelchairs and that the primary consideration is to make a space safe for them, that they have to take a janky elevator with an adult who happens to have a key. Yeah Yo, now, like most.

01:14:04:19 - 01:14:10:09

Erin Croyle

People imagine how claustrophobic and trapped that must make students feel.

01:14:10:11 - 01:14:29:19

Trina Allen

I the first year that I taught in the district previous I had a classroom with 15 kids, five of whom used wheelchairs exclusively. And I had myself and one para told me with expectations for that.

01:14:29:21 - 01:14:35:03

Erin Croyle

And then a lot of those situations, these are students. You should have 1 to 1 support.

01:14:35:04 - 01:14:36:02

Trina Allen

Well, they were all supposed to.

01:14:36:06 - 01:14:57:23

Erin Croyle

But they don't. Let me ask you a question then. I think sometimes people who are not involved in disability, who don't understand it, they think that there are some open and closed cases where general education is not appropriate. So is there any clear cut case where, you know.

01:14:57:24 - 01:15:20:17

Trina Allen

And in fact, we're going to talk my favorite. Okay. So I've been a teacher who's taught in this field. I've lost many students. Right. And that is incredibly difficult. But it makes you think and makes you think about every single moment. Right. And honestly, it might make you a little paranoid about some things. It makes you think about every single moment, and that's the benefit of it.

01:15:20:17 - 01:15:42:12

Trina Allen

It gives you perspectives. And I had a student the first year that I taught in this other segregated class, and there was a group of intellectually disabled students, 18 students, many who were multiple disabled, and that was before I had the reverse inclusion program. But there was one student who was incredibly medically fragile. He had he had a birth injury.

01:15:42:12 - 01:16:04:21

Trina Allen

There was parts of his brain that no longer worked, and he had a heart situation in which his head could never go below his heart like, wow, multiple things. Right? And he did have a nurse. And I was worried because he had such a different understanding of the world. And 90% of what we were doing was sensory based.

01:16:04:23 - 01:16:35:15

Trina Allen

Right. And care, support, care, like making sure all of his medical needs were attended, making sure all of the things that he needed done daily were being done. And then for the education piece, we're talking about cause and effect. And so would I be able to support him in such a busy classroom and his parents had to fight with lawyers, fight to get him placed in a segregated classroom at that level versus a care classroom at the county level.

01:16:35:16 - 01:16:36:14

Erin Croyle

Wow.

01:16:36:16 - 01:16:58:13

Trina Allen

They had a fight. I wish I'm not I'm not going to say who they are, but without asking permission first. But in any case, they did. And they're amazing advocates and I love them. He used a wheelchair that was specifically made for him, and he liked to spend in that wheelchair. And then he would smile very slowly. One side of his mouth would smile.

01:16:58:15 - 01:17:19:06

Trina Allen

And then if he did that, he had a dolphin. He liked the sound of that made a squeak noise. Then he would stick out his tongue and he would smile. So in my classroom, in order to ingratiate him into every single activity, the kids get this idea that he has to spin, of course, to to join the court, and then we need to do the dolphin.

01:17:19:07 - 01:17:39:13

Trina Allen

And so every single transition, it was like this thing of who gets to spin him for cooking, for making a cake. He was going to put the mixer in his hands. He can feel the vibration. Who gets to do it? It was like the joy of the entire classroom of who gets to participate with him. And he loved it because you got all this sensory input.

01:17:39:15 - 01:18:05:13

Trina Allen

And by the end of the year, it wasn't like I was having to integrate him into anything the class already did him, and he did pass away that summer and it was he graduated though. yeah, right. Like and so he, he passed away that summer and I, I was like, how am I going to leave my class with options?

01:18:05:15 - 01:18:11:06

Trina Allen

Like I went from not knowing how to integration to not knowing how to run a class without him.

01:18:11:08 - 01:18:11:22

Erin Croyle

Right.

01:18:12:02 - 01:18:49:00

Trina Allen

Because multiple levels of ability in a space make that space inclusive. Now, unless that person themselves either directly or indirectly tell you they don't want to be there. Right. Like personality type matters too. There might have been some kids like a don't touch me with that, you know? Right. I wasn't him, but I think it's really, really important that we take personality and perspective and desire involved in all of these things.

01:18:49:00 - 01:19:09:14

Trina Allen

That's the primary. You know, listen, that deep listening, that understanding of allowing people to be themselves really means that. But also don't let it be because the environment sucks. Don't let it be. They don't want to be there because environment sucks, right? Like, don't let it be that. And if it is that, figure out a way your plan and your map for fixing it.

01:19:09:16 - 01:19:16:15

Trina Allen

But no, there's no one. What person needs to be segregated from a family at school? So who needs to be institutionalized then?

01:19:16:17 - 01:19:45:04

Erin Croyle

That is such a powerful story and it speaks directly to my next question, which is how do we shift mindsets on a more global level? Because one of the things we encountered time and time again are parents who do not want their non-disabled children to share classrooms with students who have intellectual developmental disabilities or behavioral challenges or anything like that.

01:19:45:06 - 01:20:04:09

Erin Croyle

How do we shift that mindset and show the benefits of I mean, you and I know how important it is because we know in our lives how how much it's it's changed for the better by being around people with disabilities and how much a better society. So how do we help foster that mindset shift?

01:20:04:11 - 01:20:26:16

Trina Allen

I like that you put it like that. I part of me, you know, The fighter in me is instinctively like what? To demonize and be like, Well, and that's why I don't tolerate hate speech. And that is why, you know, and of course, that doesn't help, right? They were raised in a society that is based on productivity. They were raised in an able society.

01:20:26:16 - 01:20:58:14

Trina Allen

So of course, they had these viewpoints. The truth of the matter is, until we get to a place in which my liberation is bound up, in your liberation, truly intersectional, there's nothing to say to those people when those people are wanting to be bullies and to be mean. However, not every single one of them is. So many of them are misunderstood or just raised in a society in which they don't know anything about disability and they are just scared.

01:20:58:20 - 01:21:26:17

Trina Allen

So the main shifts that they have to make is based on humanity and treating people like a valuable and not expendable or disposable going forward. From there, what I do think and what I work with parents and I do to expose those, I'm not going to demonize them. I'm going to work in my my heart, but in my mind and in my understanding of the world, I'm not going to demonize them.

01:21:26:17 - 01:21:53:23

Trina Allen

I'm going to try to figure out ways in which I can help them move towards where what we need. And in that what that looks like is telling them two things or several things, really. But one of the things is that disability affects us all at any time any of us can become disabled. And the reality is the longer we live, the more likely that's to happen.

01:21:54:00 - 01:22:16:13

Trina Allen

Your child may have a disabled child. Are you giving them the skills that they need in order to help them? Your child may work with disabled people. Do they know how to interact? What are they going to do in the future? And sort of demystifying the idea that disability affects this one person this one time and it's like your entire life.

01:22:16:15 - 01:22:50:07

Trina Allen

The longer you live, the more likely you are to be disabled, first of all. And secondly, and most importantly, I think, is that children do not learn in a linear fashion. Well, we might want curriculum to be systemic and built upon the last lesson for sure. I very much believe that children learn in so many multiple ways and having more typical abilities demonstrated having multiple access.

01:22:50:07 - 01:23:14:23

Trina Allen

And we're not just talking about, you know, an easier task. It might be a harder task, right? We're talking about all that universal design that allows every child to move to the next thing. How could that possibly harm your child? Do you think that because your child is in seventh grade or first grade or fourth grade, that that's all they are capable?

01:23:14:23 - 01:23:40:18

Trina Allen

Or are you making your child that way? Right. Because they might be at third grade in art or we're just making these numbers up. The education bill hasn't been that low, you know, but around that level, for us to really have a deep understanding of it, you're limiting your child if they're just getting this one little narrow understanding of what lessons and what standards they're supposed to be working on, you're limiting your child.

01:23:40:20 - 01:24:10:08

Trina Allen

Give them expands, expand that world, allow them to learn more and critically think right. It is more complicated to make a multi ability classroom. It provides so much nuanced instruction for your family. Your child gets to learn all these different things, all these different levels, and they also learn how to be a good human. They also learn how to love themselves.

01:24:10:10 - 01:24:37:03

Trina Allen

Because I think that one of the saddest things is, especially for the non obvious disabilities, is that for those of us who are in fact there are divergent, we learn real quick that we are not what is expected. And you don't know. You think your child, you think your child is neurotypical. You don't know that they'll let you know later on.

01:24:37:05 - 01:25:01:09

Trina Allen

And I think that having a welcoming, loving environment in which all aspects of children are welcomed and focused on is never going to hurt a kid. It's never going to hurt a kid. And quite frankly, as a teacher who's in it 24/7, there are so many kids who are not on my caseload that need me there that I'm spending a lot of time with.

01:25:01:09 - 01:25:27:03

Trina Allen

You know, like it's not like it's just a couple. Right? And it might be the very parents that are like, I just wish you were focused on teaching and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I see your kid more than right. You don't know. You're not in the classroom, you don't know. But I do know that everything that I'm going to offer is going to be targeted to whatever those kids need.

01:25:27:05 - 01:25:29:11

Trina Allen

And you should be grateful for that great relief.

01:25:29:13 - 01:26:01:15

Erin Croyle

Yeah. I think that, you know, in my experience as an advocate, as a parent, as someone who tries to be as involved as possible, I just can't stress enough that one special education is a service, not a place. You know, we cannot get rid of it. Maybe the name is flawed, but all students benefit from it. You know, I think back to some of the accommodations I request for my son, like a beanbag chair or something like that because of low muscle tone or needing a break in a corner.

01:26:01:17 - 01:26:06:01

Erin Croyle

I can't think of a student who does not need a break in a corner during the day.

01:26:06:01 - 01:26:30:05

Trina Allen

Thank you. And God, we can talk about this like so. One of the one of the challenges of working in a district previously, not currently, but my previous district, It often felt like I was frustrated in a lot of ways, like I could get this if I didn't do this. That sort of working within segregated system makes makes you fight.

01:26:30:05 - 01:26:54:12

Trina Allen

Certain battles are street battles, you know. Right. So you use what you have. So if you have lawyered up parents and this sounds manipulative that is all get out and I don't mean this but if you have lawyered up parents and they are my kids getting what my kids get and they have that behind them and you think I'm not going to benefit the kids in my class who don't have that privilege?

01:26:54:14 - 01:26:55:07

Erin Croyle

No.

01:26:55:08 - 01:27:16:03

Trina Allen

Are you kidding me? I'm going to exploit the heck out of it. And I cannot tell you the accommodations that I ended up getting for kids that didn't have that in their IEP because I had a kid that did right. I wanted music therapy for this one kid so bad I can taste it, needed it wanted it, couldn't get it.

01:27:16:05 - 01:27:27:10

Trina Allen

The other parent would like. Some hardcore advocate gets it and says, you know, I'd like to have it for the whole class. Gets it for the whole class.

01:27:27:12 - 01:27:29:11

Erin Croyle

How I want to know how.

01:27:29:13 - 01:27:53:16

Trina Allen

Tell me that parent is super lawyered up in the district in this particular situation. The districts, did it provide faith and there was a settlement and you do what you will with that reason. Yeah, but for an entire year, actually longer than that, until he graduated, we did this thing where he got to lead because he needed leadership skills.

01:27:53:16 - 01:28:13:19

Trina Allen

And so we wrote that in for the music therapy. So she did music therapy as a whole group that he helped lead it. It was so great. And then everybody got to do it right. And he had leadership skills, you know, And then like, it was so pretty. It was just what any to look like It was so it was so pretty.

01:28:13:21 - 01:28:33:12

Trina Allen

And I could never, as a teacher have gotten music therapy for this particular kid that I wanted. I want to for everybody. But, you know, there are some kids are like, do what he does with those keyboards. I don't know. You know, So it's like an and again, it's like looking for that deep ways of communication, you know.

01:28:33:14 - 01:28:57:15

Erin Croyle

Well, it's interesting because one of my questions was going to be what can we do as advocates to ensure that what we're doing for our own children are helping others whose caregivers aren't able to advocate at the same level, don't have the resources? You know, you see it every day. And I know that every time I go in there for anything I advocate for for my son, unless it's something super specific.

01:28:57:21 - 01:29:09:04

Erin Croyle

Yeah, I make sure I say that. Listen, this is not just for him. I see this as a need for all students. How can we make access to extracurriculars easier? How can we do this? How can we do that?

01:29:09:06 - 01:29:35:17

Trina Allen

So systemic change is where that ultimately lies. I think personality can do a lot, but then when that person is gone, then it's like falls apart, right? So systemic changes where it needs to happen. However, that being said, you letting teachers and letting service providers know that your intent isn't just for your child, your intent is to push for all kids.

01:29:35:17 - 01:29:58:14

Trina Allen

Inclusion, I think, goes a long way in letting them know how safe they feel with you and what they can say to you and what you can ask for based on their recommendations. There was a lot of side conversations that I had with parents and in my boss and saying, Hey, these things, you know, these things. I think that that's the first thing you can do and also know your position ality and privilege.

01:29:58:20 - 01:30:32:07

Trina Allen

Explore what it might look like being advocate. If you've got legal skills man, share that. I have one parent and I think is a great example who went through the conservatorship process. And again I know I don't love the conservatorship process and have all kinds of reservations about taking control of someone else's life. And in the idea of medical need for a child who is non speaking, it can be terrifying when it's 2020 and there's no vents available.

01:30:32:13 - 01:30:49:19

Trina Allen

You know what I mean? Like, yeah, right. There's some real world things in which we've got to navigate harm reduction. And she always said, like, I went through this process and I did it myself. It would have been really, really expensive. But I did it and I have backup so I can give it to everybody. As a teacher, you got curriculum, Share it.

01:30:49:23 - 01:31:19:04

Trina Allen

Yeah. Don't keep stuff. Intellectual property, I guess. And student need though, comes first. I think as a parent, if you've got skills and you can replicate it, do it. What you're doing right now. Podcast Letting other people tap in and giving them an open idea of cool teaching could look like inclusion, can look like being a futurist in that you don't allow the systemic criminal to stop you from dreaming of what you know it can be and keeping your eye on the prize.

01:31:19:04 - 01:31:41:08

Trina Allen

What you reduced all the way through it is fine. Those are the things that we need to do. But I do really think it's literally telling, saying what you just said to the providers you work with and saying like, my intention here is first and foremost my child, of course. But first and foremost for my child for me means that every child.

01:31:41:10 - 01:31:41:23

Erin Croyle

Right?

01:31:42:01 - 01:32:06:01

Trina Allen

I do. What do you need to. Right. Question. Right. That's what I try to tell folks. I work with. And also just those things that benefit the whole class, to benefit the whole school that like you said, you taking on extracurriculars. My God, I cannot tell you until I had the reverse inclusion program how painful it was to all of the high school events.

01:32:06:03 - 01:32:34:02

Trina Allen

I had to go or they cut it. And while I'm down to go, let me tell you, it's a lot. Yeah, right. What? I have my own. My own child can be every Friday. You want to go to a football game? I'm sorry. I can't take you every Friday. Right. And then also, like going to the dance when I was 25, it was one thing, but I'm rapidly approaching 50 in a couple of years.

01:32:34:02 - 01:32:42:20

Trina Allen

It's not a thing anymore. I'm not relevant. Like you don't want to hang with me. I didn't have all the kids that knew them and so they would just go. But it wasn't fun.

01:32:42:22 - 01:32:44:17

Erin Croyle

Right?

01:32:44:19 - 01:32:55:07

Trina Allen

That's not inclusion. The fight for extra curriculars and all those things is equally as important as it is for academics.

01:32:55:09 - 01:33:22:12

Erin Croyle

Absolutely. And I think having a strong IEP that can then be carried on to school sponsored activities is critical because of all of the components. And I think to you know, I want to go back to the mindset shift when we're thinking about parents. And I think that inclusion I so often and especially lately, there's just this push about how inclusion is expensive.

01:33:22:14 - 01:33:51:00

Erin Croyle

You know, someone shared a blog with me where they cited the flaws of inclusion in and one of the examples they use was the first grader shooting the teacher in Virginia a couple of years ago. As if inclusions to blame for that, It's not you know, inclusion is critical for us to advance as a society. And so I.

01:33:51:06 - 01:33:52:20

Trina Allen

Got out of that child's hands.

01:33:52:22 - 01:33:58:05

Erin Croyle

Right. Right. It doesn't it's not because that child is in school.

01:33:58:05 - 01:34:00:09

Trina Allen

It's it's because that child didn't get what they need.

01:34:00:10 - 01:34:02:01

Erin Croyle

It is because.

01:34:02:03 - 01:34:17:02

Trina Allen

The child didn't get what they needed. The child would have been in school. Unless you think that they should stay at home with their parents because we go back to that. We can go back to segregation by race. We can go back to segregation by ability. We can go back to segregation if you want to live in that world.

01:34:17:03 - 01:34:29:20

Trina Allen

And I don't know, like the answer to that child is that child needed a lot. That child needed a lot. And it's not the inclusion teacher that.

01:34:29:22 - 01:34:33:10

Erin Croyle

Just the school. Everything else is that child's right.

01:34:33:13 - 01:34:53:21

Trina Allen

It's everything in that child's life. And let's talk about placement. When kids are getting what they need, that they're in a placement. That's not inclusion. That's not what we're advocating for. So you're just talking nonsense now, because if it wasn't actually inclusion in that child would have been getting the support that they needed both at school and at.

01:34:53:23 - 01:35:06:10

Trina Allen

Yeah, that's just and I forgot the logical fallacy that that's the name of it is. But that's it's a logical fallacy. You're using it as an example, a fear mongering example that has nothing to do with anything real.

01:35:06:12 - 01:35:29:07

Erin Croyle

Well, let's go broader. That's a very specific example of something kind of extreme. But in a similar vein, the students who throw desks and mice are not all these kids even have IEPs, right? They get it cited as an inclusion issue, but it's really just a kid. So you have kids that throw dust, that bite, that whatever. And so you have parents saying, I inclusion isn't working.

01:35:29:07 - 01:35:33:22

Erin Croyle

Okay. So what is what is your counter to that? Who is someone deeply involved?

01:35:33:24 - 01:35:57:07

Trina Allen

my counter to that is that I don't believe in the school to prison pipeline. So what happens to those children who throw desks? First off, those children who throw dust are deeply traumatized. There is no neuron type that throws dust. That's a thing. There is a child in trauma who is responding in a manner that fits their current situation right?

01:35:57:09 - 01:36:24:17

Trina Allen

So there is no neural type that bites. That's not a thing that is a person in distress. So we can just institutionalize everybody who doesn't behave. We'll have lots of prisons. Now, that's not the world in which I want to live. That child goes somewhere. Where do they go? Do they go to a classroom with everybody who is in that same level of trauma?

01:36:24:19 - 01:36:45:03

Trina Allen

Because that works. Ten kids with that same level of trauma in a classroom segregated by themselves with no outside intervention and no sense of inclusion or belonging. No, that doesn't work. That's not what that child needs. And we've already failed that child. Let's talk about it. By the time they're throwing does so, by the time they're fighting something that's already happened, there's already been a breakdown.

01:36:45:05 - 01:37:10:21

Trina Allen

And so it's about one repairing that. But also, your child is still going to live in the world where there are people who throw desks, regardless of whether they see them or not. And they're still going to be responsible for them collectively as a culture. Right. We're not going to deal with a culture that is radically supremacist. That child wasn't supported in the moment.

01:37:11:01 - 01:37:45:15

Trina Allen

Let's figure out how to do that safely. I do believe your child's safety. I do believe that every child safety, not just a job. And I think that safety looks like figuring out situations before because it didn't go from nothing to buy it. Right. Okay. It didn't go from nothing to fighting. So figuring that out first and making sure that those environments are appropriate and providing all the support that that child needs, first off, second off repair, what does that look like for a child with say, who?

01:37:45:17 - 01:38:11:12

Trina Allen

Let's say something less inviting. Let's say screamed at the teacher and walked out of the room and slammed the door. So they get suspended. They go home next day in class. It's easy because they're not quote there. What did that do for anyone? They're literally nothing. What did it do, though, when there's repair between the child and the teacher and the child and the class, they learn how to communicate their needs.

01:38:11:12 - 01:38:34:21

Trina Allen

They learn how to communicate their wants. They learn how to communicate their frustrations in more appropriately, others. The ways in which that we can have can set. They learn how to repair when they harm, right? They learn how to take accountability for that in the classroom. And the teacher learns how to take accountability for what went wrong in the moment beforehand to this is what your child needs.

01:38:34:23 - 01:38:49:06

Trina Allen

This is what every single person needs. Think about your relationships as a husband or as a partner or as a mom. For all the ways in which we friend we relate with each other. How many times did you not know how to repair a relationship?

01:38:49:08 - 01:38:50:10

Erin Croyle

Yeah.

01:38:50:12 - 01:39:25:09

Trina Allen

How many times did you not know how to fix the harm that happened? This is where our real lives are found. And again, throwing death and biting. And that sucks. It sucks. It's scary. It's hard. I've certainly done it multiple lives, dealt with that. But the harm, the real harm happens after the fact. The real harm happens in the seclusion and exclusion of those people, because we learned that when we for we can't fix and we learned that when we are harmed, there is no repair, there is no comfort.

01:39:25:11 - 01:39:52:08

Trina Allen

Right. Because what did those kids in that classroom need when the bad thing happened? We don't know. We don't care. When we talk about the costs of inclusion, we don't talk about the cost to our humanity. If we don't, every single time we exclude somebody, we are losing an opportunity to learn how to treat another human being as valuable and not disposable.

01:39:52:10 - 01:40:15:24

Trina Allen

That doesn't mean that every kid is going to be happy in one particular placement. I am never going to advocate for that. There are people that are like, Yo, I need to be at home. I'm not going to tell you who you are, not going to tell you who you are. I don't want it to be though. I want to be at home because you never understood me.

01:40:16:05 - 01:40:28:02

Trina Allen

Yeah, right. And that's a tricky balance of figuring that out and noodling through that and working through that. But I will say that every single kid deserves that.

01:40:28:04 - 01:41:01:19

Erin Croyle

As an educator, though, tell me this. We keep hearing about more of these sort of disruptions happening more often. And I've heard from educators who've said, I don't know how to handle it or I'm not getting the support to handle it. And it's making it very hard to manage my classroom. So as an educator who's in it, who advocates for all of it, what can we do to fix that part of it?

01:41:01:21 - 01:41:26:05

Trina Allen

gosh, those things are real. I mean, I jokingly said, if you're a teacher and you can't take a punch, I don't know what you can do. And that's not fair. Yeah, you shouldn't expect, right? This is not a society. But I do think that support one another. Being loving and kind is important. So when harm happens surrounding it, why do we have to have systems and processes for it?

01:41:26:05 - 01:41:48:23

Trina Allen

So draconian measures like suspensions and in-house suspensions at lunch detention and all these, it would do nothing. We do nothing when it's trauma, if it's just naughtiness, I guess because they don't want the bad thing, they'll do the other thing because they have a choice. But when it's trauma, they don't have a choice. It just doesn't work. So then it ends up being the same five kids, right?

01:41:49:00 - 01:42:10:09

Trina Allen

And usually that's based on race and ability. It always goes back to that. Right. So the draconian things don't work. What do we do? We have systems of repair. We have restorative circles that built into our day. We have ways in which we can work together. And we don't wait.

01:42:10:11 - 01:42:11:10

Erin Croyle

Right?

01:42:11:12 - 01:42:34:08

Trina Allen

We don't wait till that desk is through. Right? We listen to when a kid has an IEP, we actually follow it first off. And if it doesn't have IEP and I see that they're upset, I'm going to deal with that. I'm going to deal with that and not say it's not my job. And the dealing with it needs to be explicitly taught.

01:42:34:10 - 01:42:59:23

Trina Allen

Listening to children, having time to listen to children, having enough counselors, right. Having repair circles, really addressing and digging in what that need looks like and having a culture of accountability and that like you don't just ignore meanness when a child is fearful. We're really to talk about this. It is not just going to be a contract between you, the kid, the parent and the kid that was bullied.

01:43:00:04 - 01:43:27:03

Trina Allen

This is not what we're doing. We are doing it. We're opening it up and we are being honest about where we are. And I know that teachers are overwhelmed. I have been overwhelmed. But I also feel like the 99% tool belt that I could give any teacher is rapport. You will never teach content until you have rapport. You will never teach content until you have their trust.

01:43:27:05 - 01:43:41:21

Trina Allen

You will never gain their trust until you have good rapport with them, until you have shown them time and time again. You are a safe person. And I think that that should be the focus of a lot of our education rather than some of the hoops that we go through.

01:43:41:23 - 01:44:05:12

Erin Croyle

Yeah, and I really want to add thinking about the mindset shift and thinking about seeing students at any age and I mentioned this before I speak to college students about inclusion and inclusive practices and universal design for living and learning. And one of the things I mentioned is you know, look around you and think about what you need in your day to day.

01:44:05:12 - 01:44:18:15

Erin Croyle

Think about conformity and think about what we try to shut out of our lives. Like you mentioned with Ada, you know, it's like something is wrong with stimming when stimming is something that actually brings comfort to people.

01:44:18:17 - 01:44:20:12

Trina Allen

We talk about that like.

01:44:20:14 - 01:44:20:19

Erin Croyle

You.

01:44:20:19 - 01:44:57:13

Trina Allen

Talk about the fact that I had a student many, many years ago who did this particular stem, and she did a lot. And I do it now usually when I'm alone. But like it is so stress reducing. And I never I was never a teacher that said that stemming all of the things that I was dealing with, especially in that placement like that was not one of them, but the pure joy I would have been stealing from him one And then also like, thank you, I want to give him some like that's 20 years later because thank God I had that at my worst moments.

01:44:57:15 - 01:44:58:02

Erin Croyle

Right?

01:44:58:03 - 01:45:00:16

Trina Allen

Yeah. No, it's just like, not.

01:45:00:16 - 01:45:28:06

Erin Croyle

Always exist in the same ethos, you know? I know when I was in school, like I needed to click something or. Yeah. And so for students taking a test, if the clicking a noise, you bring in earplugs. We need to know that the world is not going to be our perfect little conformed bubble. So instead of making someone who has to make noise, be quiet, let's all adapt to help us all be who we are in our own.

01:45:28:08 - 01:45:40:00

Trina Allen

Let's teach kids to know that about themselves. So like, I really do need it quiet. So let me be the here. I'm going to advocate that I have a I, I don't I even I'm going to advocate that I have a quiet testing space.

01:45:40:05 - 01:45:41:12

Erin Croyle

5044.

01:45:41:14 - 01:46:18:02

Trina Allen

504 Thank you. And I'm so mad. That even has to be about why can't I say hi? I really struggle with it when it's loud in here. I go in the hallway. Okay. Yeah. So whatever. Like, it's not a problem. We need to think about trusting children, first off. Yeah, Trusting children. And also when you can say yes, do when you can say yes, do When you have to say no, mean it When it's something that is really not okay.

01:46:18:04 - 01:46:41:15

Trina Allen

Let that be truly not okay and address it. Don't just walk over it when real harm happens, when real bullying happens, when real abuse happens, really acknowledge it. Not just in the moment. Jump in three weeks later. Yeah, Have time for that deep repair. Transformative. Let's change the culture in which this is created is really what we're talking about.

01:46:41:15 - 01:47:05:18

Trina Allen

And then being allowed for those accommodations, trusting kids to know what they are and teaching them all the options for that. Right? Letting it be like a menu, like I really do better with this, this, this. We all learn that, especially if we make it past high school and go to college. All you hear from college students is like, I need the music on or I can only study in black ness.

01:47:05:24 - 01:47:18:24

Trina Allen

I need to be dark with my just my computer, you know, whatever it may be. You learn all that and it's only the privileged folks that end up there right. Which are all going to use that in their brain.

01:47:19:01 - 01:47:44:06

Erin Croyle

Yeah, it's interesting. I remind myself and I remind my family and whomever to write, especially with neurodiversity and realizing the the quirks that come with it that sometimes you have to look at intentions, don't look at what has happened, look at the intentions, at the intentions are well-meaning, then give people grace. And that applies to students too.

01:47:44:12 - 01:48:10:17

Trina Allen

I totally agree. I will always talk about impact, right? I will always talk about impact. Because even if you didn't mean to hurt somebody, you did it. It matters. And intention matters to absolutely. Intention matters to when someone is just their stem is to clap the table. Really loudly and I can't talk over it. Yeah, I'm probably going to have to.

01:48:10:20 - 01:48:13:10

Trina Allen

We're going to have to negotiate the system in a.

01:48:13:10 - 01:48:14:24

Erin Croyle

Pillow forum debate. Yes.

01:48:15:03 - 01:48:49:01

Trina Allen

Nothing. Right. Exactly. We're going to figure out a way to, you know, exist together yet exist together. And if the intention is to be irritating, I'm going to want to know what both of those situations, the why matters and the why informs the how. And it should always be that. And neither of those kids, the kid that's banging on the desk to disrupt and the kids are banging on the desk because it does really go to the base of their hand are both valuable members of society and need to know how to get those things out.

01:48:49:02 - 01:49:10:04

Trina Allen

And when. The intention on your end is to just control the situation rather than meet whatever the underlying needs are, You lost the loss and you're going to be a bad teacher. You know that. You know, bad teachers always talk about that. You just approach it. You know.

01:49:10:10 - 01:49:17:02

Erin Croyle

I think we all go through phases of that in our lives regardless that teachers or whoever. That's hard.

01:49:17:04 - 01:49:18:16

Trina Allen

But yeah.

01:49:18:18 - 01:49:37:11

Erin Croyle

Yeah, I mean, we've been talking forever and I could honestly talk to you for hours more and maybe we will one day, but I want to ask one more question. Hopefully just one more. Trina If you could create inclusive public schools with a magic wand, what would you do to make that happen?

01:49:37:13 - 01:50:16:03

Trina Allen

Well, on the macro level, I would end imperialism, white supremacy on the macro level, I would end genocide. On the macro level, I would teach people that humans are not disposable in any way. On the macro level, all those things are true and that is where I need to stay. If I want to stay in this field and I do.

01:50:16:05 - 01:50:56:21

Trina Allen

So I got to keep my mind on the future. I got to keep my mind on that. The next thing, the more immediate is that we need we need to fund schools. We need to have less obsession with a standard and more support provided. Because when kids are dealing with a housing crisis, when kids are dealing with systemic racism, when kids are dealing with the fact that their parents don't have money or time to even do basic things.

01:50:56:21 - 01:51:28:02

Trina Allen

So this school is going to be the place where all of those things happen. The school is now more of a mental health triage than it is just a place of academic understanding. When those things are true, we need to keep our eyes on the macro level of like, we're not going to fix this in this moment, but if we are looking forward to those things, we're looking forward to people actually mattering for inclusion to be real and by extension, people of all abilities, disabilities.

01:51:28:04 - 01:51:59:07

Trina Allen

I really believe that focusing on meeting each support need regardless of disability, is super important, that that rapport and humanity comes before content and. Once that is established, content becomes interesting and fun because you learn who they are and they learn who you are and they want to learn from you. They want they want this information that 10 minutes ago they were like, That's stupid.

01:51:59:09 - 01:52:17:14

Trina Allen

I hate math, or, you know, whatever it is, I just very much feel that that needs to happen. And teaching needs to happen. There cannot be the co teaching model of special ed teachers being the support. It can't be that curriculum is to be created. There needs to be time for that. There needs to be time for repair.

01:52:17:16 - 01:52:38:07

Trina Allen

There needs to be time to assess what you're doing. And is it working for the kids that don't have IEPs that they require a lot of support, understanding that they're your children to write them for the kids with IEPs that need a lot of support, that they're not getting understanding. It's hard that I don't know what to do about that.

01:52:38:09 - 01:52:51:13

Trina Allen

That's really hard. That is the piece that kills me when I have a kid that has one that has the support that they need, that they're not getting at, that is still out about it, I guess.

01:52:51:15 - 01:52:54:00

Erin Croyle

Because there's poorly trained staff and.

01:52:54:02 - 01:52:57:05

Trina Allen

Or there's no staff, they're relegated and they don't have it.

01:52:57:07 - 01:52:59:17

Erin Croyle

Yeah, yeah.

01:52:59:19 - 01:53:25:24

Trina Allen

Pay teachers better. Sorry. I mean, that's true. That's true. Here is my work staff, my God, if you want to talk about able ism, the people who were closest with the kids experience it as a bystander because they they get ignored, thrown around as if they don't matter and they directly impact our students.

01:53:26:01 - 01:53:43:17

Erin Croyle

What you mentioned is a philosophy focal level I think on on on an actual like policy level and in action level, what I hear is and what I get personally experience based, you know, to to achieve what you're saying. We need to pay the Paris support.

01:53:43:19 - 01:53:44:08

Trina Allen

Yes.

01:53:44:08 - 01:53:45:16

Erin Croyle

Living wage.

01:53:45:18 - 01:54:08:21

Trina Allen

Paris need to be the living wage. Yes. We need to value that. So it's access. It's always about access, right? In my last job, they couldn't come to any of the meetings. And as a that was teaching a segregated class because transportation wouldn't change. I couldn't go to the staff meetings of my school and they could never they can never go.

01:54:09:00 - 01:54:33:00

Trina Allen

In fact, in the 14 years that I worked and the same school, same classroom, I the same para Mindi and I know she does not care. She 100% wants me to say her. India's fabulous Mindy been there longer than any admin. Multiple admins who had been there for several years didn't know her name. You see her, but you don't because you don't come to my classroom.

01:54:33:00 - 01:54:47:20

Trina Allen

Second But also she has dedicated her life for a pittance. She has dedicated her life. I could not 300 not do my job. Right? Right. She is my co teacher.

01:54:47:22 - 01:54:48:16

Erin Croyle

Right?

01:54:48:18 - 01:55:12:19

Trina Allen

She is my co teacher and she is treated like that. But if you want to ask anybody on campus about someone's IEP, you're going to ask her, right? Because she. No, she implements it when I am not there. She teaches my because, you know, that's I don't know any I mean, no shade. It's hard. But God blesses us, you know, like that's not an easy job.

01:55:12:21 - 01:55:15:13

Trina Allen

But like, they don't know. They don't know. They don't know.

01:55:15:13 - 01:55:17:11

Erin Croyle

Possibly for a sub to know. Yeah, right.

01:55:17:12 - 01:55:46:17

Trina Allen

It's impossible. What is your mole having a seizure or Sally. Shouldn't it have apples. Because that you know, all the fate of of things. That's what parents know and the ways in which they have no support and no agency directly shows you how close they are to the student. It's like it's able is and by extension, the farther away from disability you are, the more power you get.

01:55:46:22 - 01:56:02:20

Erin Croyle

I've never thought about it that way, but what I do see is that a really good pair of one on one to ESP whatever you call. Yeah. Makes all the difference.

01:56:02:22 - 01:56:05:01

Trina Allen

01:56:05:03 - 01:56:06:18

Erin Croyle

All the difference.

01:56:06:20 - 01:56:07:04

Trina Allen

Yes.

01:56:07:08 - 01:56:26:16

Erin Croyle

And so I can't help but think if we were to be able to train and hire and pay folks what they're worth and how we value that, it would have the biggest impact.

01:56:26:18 - 01:56:49:11

Trina Allen

my God, Yes. You have no idea that that would be every thing. When I worked at that first job, I had a supervisor who talked about wanting to change the whole dynamic of the environment and he had this great idea. He was like, We'll teach modules, we'll teach these big modules on trainings and people, whatever module they are on.

01:56:49:11 - 01:57:14:24

Trina Allen

So they'll get paid at 42. There's some like interactive learning, right? Like some textbook type setting. But then in order to pass module, you would have to teach it to somebody else in your department. That's part of it. You would have to co train somebody and then you pass that module and now they are able to start the module that you just pat me.

01:57:15:01 - 01:57:36:22

Trina Allen

So it's like this rapidly expanding, you're benefited by someone else. Next to you doing better, of course. And then multiple people learn, right? So even the people that don't want to move up the modules, they still learn because they're helping their buddy out. It was so smart. I was like, Why can't we do that? And also, no shame that my master's program was trash.

01:57:36:24 - 01:57:54:15

Trina Allen

I didn't learn to be a teacher in a classroom, right? But I listened in. I learned to be a teacher in a classroom. I taught it by seeing other really good teachers. A lot of them were peer educators or whatever that lingo is. There were support staff and they were amazing. And I learned to be a teacher through them.

01:57:54:17 - 01:58:11:14

Trina Allen

And my students guide my biggest teachers of students. Always, always that that apprenticeship. Why could that be a thing? Why are teachers who are doing good or making a huge difference? Why is it so isolated? Let's capitalize on that sense of people over what job.

01:58:11:16 - 01:58:12:00

Erin Croyle

Right?

01:58:12:02 - 01:58:17:14

Trina Allen

Apprenticeship. Well, if you have amazing career educator having trained some folks.

01:58:17:16 - 01:58:37:23

Erin Croyle

I think it's funny. I love that you said this because I feel like this interview is never going to end and I'm okay with that. But I love that you said that because as someone who studied journalism and communications, I learned everything as an intern in a newsroom.

01:58:38:00 - 01:58:38:07

Trina Allen

Know, you.

01:58:38:07 - 01:59:08:19

Erin Croyle

Go And so here we are talking about public schools and how important education is. But also, I think it's really important to acknowledge that you can have a doctorate in whatever. That's great, but that's a level of privilege and you're not actually learning truly what is happening unless you're out there doing the work. The best to the best people that I've seen my son work with are the ones that are out there doing the work every day.

01:59:08:19 - 01:59:15:22

Erin Croyle

It's not about a master's or a doctorate. It's about your passion and the work you're doing and what you're learning in the field.

01:59:15:24 - 01:59:18:19

Trina Allen

100% is about that is educational, elitist.

01:59:18:21 - 01:59:19:24

Erin Croyle

Academic, ivory.

01:59:19:24 - 01:59:44:13

Trina Allen

Tower. It's just it's nonsense. And while I love debate theory, I can do that all day long. I love talking about six essential things and big macro ideas and whatever. I love school the way for that. For the discussion aspect alone, I can have all of that. I can understand all the different theories of how education developed and ways in which to talk to kids and what ideologies come out of what theories and what they're based on.

01:59:44:13 - 01:59:58:24

Trina Allen

And I can have all of that and it does nothing to help me when Sally has an accident in class and how to navigate that with her dignity, my own and everyone around us.

01:59:59:01 - 02:00:11:23

Erin Croyle

Right. It does nothing to help you figure out how to talk to someone who has cerebral palsy, who has a very distinct dialect. You really have to get to learn to be able to understand them. But once you do, you can have a really great conversation.

02:00:12:00 - 02:00:25:09

Trina Allen

Thank you. Those things are all valid. Those are valid, but that doesn't make them primary. What is primary is relationship and rapport. How to make yourself a safe space so that learning can happen.

02:00:25:11 - 02:00:26:12

Erin Croyle

Connection.

02:00:26:14 - 02:00:51:10

Trina Allen

Yeah. my God. And not on your own terms. There's so many adults who think that connection has to be on their terms. It's like if you aren't going out of your way to meet where someone is at, when you are in a position of power. And I don't care what any adult says, but little children, we live in a very aged society.

02:00:51:12 - 02:01:10:17

Trina Allen

Children are infantilized in ways in which they don't need to be. In some ways they do, but in ways they don't need to be to be in a position of power, specially a teacher and not attempt to meet a person where they're at. And that connection is my opinion. Abuse of power.

02:01:10:19 - 02:01:33:22

Erin Croyle

Every student. I'm sure you have a different way to connect with them. And so again, I'll go go to go to my son who really connects through silliness again. So the people who are able to try to understand him and laugh when he calls you Uncle, whatever. Yeah, they get to know him on a level that nobody else will and then actually see that he's very smart and funny and caring and kind.

02:01:33:24 - 02:01:36:04

Erin Croyle

Yes, they go out of their way to put.

02:01:36:04 - 02:01:38:00

Trina Allen

The I.

02:01:38:00 - 02:01:57:01

Erin Croyle

That whole like adult authoritative and they learn to interact with him person to person. So the whole respect me by calling me mister Mr. John Doe is is ridiculous. The people who say, Hey, call me Walt. Hey, call me Trina.

02:01:57:03 - 02:02:18:10

Trina Allen

Come on. Yeah. It's like you don't need to abdicate your empowerment. It's like people are like, Well, you can give children all the power. And I'm like, my God. Is that there's a lack of power. We can all be empowered. Hey, people think the power needs to be hierarchical and the reality is that that's dangerous. Once power becomes hierarchical, it becomes problematic.

02:02:18:12 - 02:02:44:17

Trina Allen

There are times in which I will use that power. When a child is running across the street and there is a car coming, you better believe I'll use my voice. You better believe I'll use my power to prevent that from dying outside of that hierarchical power doesn't really matter. Doesn't need it. We can both be empowered. And if my job isn't to squash you down and to show you how to, you have to become like me or like this ideology of who I think a person should be.

02:02:44:19 - 02:02:48:09

Trina Allen

My my joy is in being empowered with you.

02:02:48:11 - 02:03:13:20

Erin Croyle

Your example just then, is a perfect example of why for behavior. So you think about elopement, which can be very confusing. I was able to really understand it better when I stopped yelling Stop and I quietly followed and gently put a hand on his shoulder and said, What's going on? Yeah. When you stop to listen in, interact instead of barking orders.

02:03:13:22 - 02:03:39:01

Erin Croyle

And I think it's really important, especially with kids with disabilities, that require more attention and more care. They don't have much authority over their body or themselves. how putting on a shoe. And you can't say that it hurt you, the food that you're fed if you cannot feed yourself, what if you don't like it and you're not able to tell someone because no one's figured out how to listen to you?

02:03:39:03 - 02:03:55:06

Trina Allen

The body fascism that we can talk about that for a long time. And I think that around bathroom issues it's so it's it's so needed. It's one of the biggest abuses that I feel like happened in public education. That is just unfair.

02:03:55:08 - 02:04:07:09

Erin Croyle

Let me ask you this, Chino. We've been talking for almost 2 hours now, and I didn't even get to the question that I should have asked Mid-interview, which is where do life skills fall into inclusion?

02:04:07:11 - 02:04:29:05

Trina Allen

yes. If you are teaching something that is straight up serious, that's it. You are doing your child a disservice regardless of what you're teaching. Life skills should be brought into the classroom, period. It doesn't just help students with disabilities. It helps every single kid. If you are teaching something about ratios and measurement and you don't bring in the cake mix, I don't know what is wrong with you because you just wasted something.

02:04:29:07 - 02:04:58:12

Trina Allen

Yeah. Life skills. Who taught you how to figure out a mortgage? Nobody is so stressful, right? And you're like, even that. Why is there a tennis? You know, like, that's the level, right? That's the level I understood about life skills. Feel like that's a huge disservice. I feel like that's a huge disservice to all us when you can teach theoretical things and have a life skill aspect to it.

02:04:58:14 - 02:05:04:19

Trina Allen

By not doing that, you're only not doing it for, in my opinion, those reasons.

02:05:04:21 - 02:05:25:24

Erin Croyle

I Wow, thank you. Because it's funny, I didn't put the two together until this point, but I've often thought, why don't high schools have you know, back in the day they called it home economics, but you know, a basic class of cooking cleaning, scrubbing a toilet, sewing a button, bills, personal finance.

02:05:26:01 - 02:05:38:24

Trina Allen

How to get Social Security disability. I mean, just a real world stuff. Yes. What to do when your medical thing denies you. You know, there are some things I needed help with.

02:05:39:01 - 02:05:49:16

Erin Croyle

Yeah. I wish I could turn back the clock and have someone teach my 18 year old self or freshman year self of high school things that I didn't learn until I was 45.

02:05:49:17 - 02:05:53:01

Trina Allen

What a capitalizing loan is right here.

02:05:53:01 - 02:05:55:15

Erin Croyle

Very traditional versus Roth.

02:05:55:17 - 02:06:19:10

Trina Allen

You don't even know that. And it's so boring to me because I don't understand the premise because I never learned it. And I think that, yeah, so all of those things, life skills needs to happen, all of those things at every level, whether that's basic bodily care all the way to, you know, budgeting with IRA, you know. Yeah, those are things that everyone should have absolute access to.

02:06:19:10 - 02:06:26:07

Trina Allen

And I question the reason why we don't, you know, I again, I'm a systemic thinker and I think that those are very clear reasons why we don't.

02:06:26:09 - 02:06:38:05

Erin Croyle

That's true because it is. I mean, even if you take disability out of it, it's also a systemic problem and with less privilege are the ones that could really use that information the most. So why aren't we finding ways to get it to them?

02:06:38:07 - 02:06:40:05

Trina Allen

Because we don't want to because we don't want them to have that.

02:06:40:05 - 02:06:41:04

Erin Croyle

We want to keep them there.

02:06:41:10 - 02:07:02:13

Trina Allen

The system is it's wrong. No. 100%. I very much feel like life skills and also, quite frankly, their desires by the kids. In fact, that was the first thing I asked for this year. I was like, I don't care what what class or care what you y'all do, I'll take extra, you know, whatever I want a classroom with a sink.

02:07:02:15 - 02:07:09:12

Trina Allen

We cook a lot, We cook a lot. What they like to eat. They're hungry. They like to do. They need to.

02:07:09:12 - 02:07:11:01

Erin Croyle

Move hands on.

02:07:11:03 - 02:07:36:10

Trina Allen

Yeah, You can do multiple levels of ability during cooking and physical activities like art projects and things like that. Universal design becomes easier when things become both applied and content theory like it. It's so much easier. Like it's time to learn about geometry. And I have everyone from a child who is identifying a one versus a two to a child that can do pen to us.

02:07:36:15 - 02:07:43:17

Trina Allen

If I have that, then I'm going to build me some IKEA shelves. So we're going to talk about geometry.

02:07:43:19 - 02:08:01:12

Erin Croyle

Thank you. I really personally needed that. It just made a connection in my brain. I have a hard time learning, sitting in it, sitting there, listening. I have to either doodle or whatever for my own neurodiversity. And so I don't think most people are designed to sit in a desk and listen to a lecture. So I don't.

02:08:01:13 - 02:08:03:04

Trina Allen

Know, you know.

02:08:03:06 - 02:08:19:04

Erin Croyle

Hence universal thinking. So full circle here. Life skills, Universal design for living and learning, inclusion. It's all interconnected and it really comes down to completely rethinking how we view our classrooms.

02:08:19:06 - 02:08:38:11

Trina Allen

And what's the production, what we want. Like if we're going to have capitalist terms, what is the production, what are we trying to create? Are we really trying to create robots who can sit back and test scores? Is that really going to benefit society? Will that benefit them in the society in which they live?

02:08:38:13 - 02:08:48:19

Erin Croyle

And also having children of many, many levels of ability allows them to learn the value of other people who.

02:08:48:21 - 02:08:50:19

Trina Allen

Maybe they undervalue, because.

02:08:50:21 - 02:09:20:21

Erin Croyle

Of the wisdom they've experienced. I see the empathy in my my, my middle child who is two years younger than Arlo. So, Emil, the empathy, he just exudes and understands. I and I think one, he was just born that way, but two, he and his brother have a bond because they've always been together. Amiel has no issue with kids, with, you know, he just he just is around them.

02:09:20:21 - 02:09:24:23

Erin Croyle

And does he say the wrong thing On occasion, sure. But the intentions are always good.

02:09:25:02 - 02:09:51:11

Trina Allen

Yeah, that is like the least. The idea that he is able to be sibling, like with anybody that walks into his space because he knows he doesn't have a preconceived expectation what an interaction should look like. He just sort of meets the person with her and does his thing and they do theirs and they do it together. Like that is something are locates like, you know, like he was open to it.

02:09:51:11 - 02:10:21:14

Trina Allen

He received that he's a person that temperament wise and personality wise, that was like that's worth that. But that's also like something that are a little bit less labor that he didn't have to do it in so pretty when it happens. And there's no way to really articulate just how beautiful it is when something works really well and you're like, This isn't hierarchical, this is just humans being sweet and kind to one another and gentle and learning and growing.

02:10:21:14 - 02:10:36:07

Trina Allen

And it feels really good. And when those moments happen, you're like, It should be like this all. It could be like this could.

02:10:36:09 - 02:11:06:21

Erin Croyle

It could be like this all the time. Educator, advocate, activist Trina Allan concludes this two parter with something we all need a little bit more of. In our next episode, we're talking employment with self advocate Dorothy Clark. She opens up about her experiences as a person with a disability, navigating the workforce from her start in sheltered workshops to serving as a mentor and board member.

02:11:06:23 - 02:11:23:07

Erin Croyle

Be sure to share, subscribe, like follow or whatever it is you need so you get a ping when it drops. This is the Odyssey Parenting Caregiving Disability. I'm Erin Croyle. We'll talk soon.