Carnival of Sorts (Boxcars)

The R.E.M. Breakdown

This week on the pod jD and Rico discuss the third track on Chonic Town, Carnival of Sorts (Boxcars)

Transcript: [0:15] Hey, it's JD here, and I'm joined as always by my friend Rico Borrego to discuss.

[0:20] The work of influential American band REM.

Every week, we're going to explore a different song in the band's catalog, working through the discography in chronological order to better understand just why this four-piece isconsidered so seminal, innovative, and downright awesome. So there's that.

Talk to me, Rico. How the hell are things going this week?

Oh they've been going good been going good um i have a question for you hit me.

[0:51] What do you think of what do you think of carnivals what do i think of carnivals carnivals in general in general that's a that's a great question i don't know that i've ever really been toa carnival i've been to a fair and i've been to an exhibition but a carnival fits somewhere in in that realm but i don't know that i've been to a proper carnival they're they're weird i've onlybeen to one once and i was when i was really young yeah um i i want to say it was probably the ringling brothers okay and and it's weird it's i you know i've been to fairs too like i fairslike i've i went to you know throughout all my childhood and fairs are fun because there's rides and fair food and stuff yeah but it kind of was weird like when i went to it you're just like,everyone's kind of sitting like in a you know in a it's kind of like a concert the way it's set up like in a circle and you're just watching you know these people do weird things in the middleof the the arena you know like wow it's they're animals yeah there was um there was an elephant i remember remember so it's sort of circusy then yeah yeah and i don't know if there is abig difference between a carnival and a circus i kind of see them as you know similar things i mean like i feel like when this is a carnival of sorts yeah oh i like what you did there.

[2:21] Um but yeah they're they're interesting i you know i i think you see them a lot in movies and and whatnot and yeah you see you know like um oh there was a movie a couple yearsago go um, nightmare alley i think where um i think it was a remake with bradley cooper and like the whole the movie revolves around like a carnival and there's like psychics and youknow the strong men and the people doing the acrobats and stuff like that.

Right, right. And they're- Dear good lady. Yeah. And they're interesting.

And they kind of make up the song we're going to be talking about today.

Interesting. Yeah, that's far out.

So we've really spilled the beans here, although the title of the episode spilled the beans first.

We're talking today about Carnival of Sorts, parentheses, boxcars.

[3:24] Is this a favorite of yours? Is this one that you like?

Dude, this chorus is so catchy. And I love the way they design this chorus with Michael singing the first two parts and then Mike Mills and somebody else.

I don't know who. I think it's Bill. We can talk about it afterwards.

It's Bill, yeah? I think so, yeah.

Doing the middle part and then Michael coming back to do the end part.

It's just so, oh man, what word?

Addictive, right? Like it's toe tapping and it's just, I could listen to it all day. Yeah, it's kind of hypnotizing.

[4:05] I will say this. It's a song that I, before we did this episode today, I had kind of mixed feelings on.

Oh, really? But after this last week, doing the research and giving the song multiple listens, I've really come to appreciate it.

It's my third favorite song on the record, I think.

[4:31] I think now, for me, it's also my third favorite.

Yeah, the first side of this record, it slays, right?

It does, and this is the last song on the side one of this EP, the Chronic Town side.

That's right, that's right. Then we get to Posters Torn.

That makes me wonder, if there was a third side to this record, would it be called Reaping Wheel?

Because he mentions it in the same phrase.

That is a very interesting thing. I actually, I didn't think about that, but yeah, I mean, a lot of their albums will take lyrics and make them the, the sides, the, you know, side one and sidetwo of, of the album.

Um, I also noticed too, in this song, like there's a lot of, he says the word diminished, which, um, way down the road on up, they have the song diminished.

Um, and then, um, you know, we'll get more into the lyrics here.

In a bit, but he's in the chorus, he sings gentlemen, don't get caught.

And two episodes ago, when we were talking about wolves lower, one of the lyrics in that song is don't get caught.

[5:42] Interesting so yeah you got a little bit of you know connections here between songs and titles and lyrics i like that connective tissue right like it makes it makes for a collection ofsongs uh that are not just arbitrarily chosen but perhaps you know strung together for a reason, i know i completely agree i mean i think again you and i being such a massive fan of thetragically and Gord Downie, you know, he would do that all the time with his lyrics. And that's right.

And I like to do when bands have like things that they sing about a lot, you know, um, you know, for me, one of my other favorite bands, Pearl jam, Eddie Vedder is always singing aboutthe ocean and the water and waves and surfing, there's a lot of ocean imagery in Eddie's lyrics.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's just, it's kind of cool. And, you know, and even REM, they have other, you know, they have multiple songs where Michael's type is singing about honey, you know?

[6:42] That's right an alligator yeah and it's just you know i i don't know if it's if it's a georgia thing or not but i i i think it's cool it gives them their own kind of you know like i just likethinking of a band having their these common themes that they go back to you know album yeah after album i think sometime during the course of this podcast we need to visit athens youand i I need to do like a road trip and visit Athens and maybe even record an episode from there or something. That would be fucking cool. That would be great.

Yeah. I don't, I've, I've never been. Me neither.

[7:20] To be fair, I've, um, even though I've lived in the United States all my life, I probably have only been to five different States in total.

Oh, okay. I, I, I've not traveled a lot.

What was that? I'm only missing five. Oh, you're only missing five.

Yeah. You know, which five are you missing? I don't know right now.

I'd have to look in my journal.

I know Alaska for sure, because I've never been to Alaska. I've never been to Hawaii.

So those two. Yeah, Hawaii is like number one on my list. Like, you know. Oh, yeah. I'll get there eventually.

Yeah. Well, Athens first, then Hawaii. Yeah. I mean, and just like how I want to go back.

Now that I'm such a fan of the hip, I want to go back to Canada, because I've only been the one time.

Oh, wow. Yeah, come. I'll take you to Kingston. That would be awesome.

Yeah. That would be cool.

[8:12] So with carnival of sorts, uh, I will say that I found a little information where maybe what inspired this song.

Okay. So as we said, it's the last song on the Chronic Town side of Chronic Town.

In 2019, Michael, he was doing press for the Monster issue. Yeah.

And he mentioned that the lyrics for this song and the song Circus Envy off Monster were both inspired by the carnival scene in the 1980 movie The Elephant Man, directed by DavidLynch.

Get out of here. Now, I've never seen the film. Yeah.

So I don't even know what the carnival scene in this film is.

But yeah. I don't recall it off the top. I have seen the movie, but I have a terrible memory.

And my only guess would be right off the top of my head.

Is that at one point the elephant man, um, becomes sort of like a carnival sideshow site type thing, or, you know, that's how he's viewed as a carnival.

That was my guess too, from never seen in a film and only knowing, you know, a little bit about the elephant man.

Um, which funny enough, I actually, I think the first time I ever heard of the elephant man was through the, um, bare naked lady song.

If I had a million dollars. Oh, really? Yeah.

[9:41] Another Canadian cut. I know, all these Canadian references.

Yeah. But yeah, so supposedly that's where this song and Serpents Envy get their lyrics from.

Interesting. But I did a little bit more digging.

Yeah. And there happens to be another movie from 1962, a horror film called Carnival of Souls.

[10:06] Really? Which sounds very close to Carnival of Sorts. It does.

And it also has like, um, scenes with like this woman, you know, traveling and moving to a place where there's like this like pavilion that used to have a carnival, but now it's likeabandoned.

And like when she drives past it, like she sees like this, like imagery of this, like guy's face and a mask.

And again, have not seen the film, just did some reading on Wikipedia, but.

[10:38] You know carnival of sorts is not like a phrase like a you know it's something that might be like made up that's right carnival of souls is so close that i'm like i wonder if you knowhe saw that film and saw the elephant man and you know kind of put those two things together for the lyrics for this song that's fascinating oh if only we could talk to him i know yeah imean this i would would love to ask about specifically this song because it seems like there's some you know hidden mystery there that you know and i mean it could be coincidence itcould be who knows but, um wow so but other for that i mean that's the only you know um nuggets that you got only nuggets besides just you know after we listen to the song dive it intothe music itself and and the lyrics i will say that um the band played the song 190 times live oh wow um a lot in the 80s and it was funny when i was um doing some research for anothersong um of theirs i noticed that.

[11:49] They stopped playing the song around 1985 and then on june 25th 2003 they brought the song back into their set now it wasn't like they were playing it again every night but in2003 they brought it back played it a couple times on that tour and then brought it back again in 2000 i think in eight when they did um those live at the olympia shows where they wereplaying a lot of older material, so but yeah from 1905 i had seen them live 2003 they didn't play it so damn yeah i know i that's When it comes to this band, that's a huge regret.

Not getting into them early enough to where I could have at least seen them on the 2008 tour.

I was into them. And I remember they played a free show in Toronto at Dundas Square, the formerly named Dundas Square.

And it was...

[12:48] Something that I was going to go to with my two friends, but I ended up, I suffered from mental illness and depression and I didn't know it at the time, but I was in a real funk and Istayed in bed all day.

I didn't go downtown and see them.

And I didn't think that that would be my last opportunity, but it was one of the last opportunities I would have had. One of them. They came back again.

[13:13] You always think there's going to be one more time.

[13:17] That's right. right yeah unless they announce because you know a lot of you know they did not announce you know until the last album was released that they were breaking up sounlike the these bands like mountain crew or kids who are always like oh this is our last tour and then they tour 10 more times you know like yeah and there wasn't there never was thatmoment so it was like oh yeah i'll catch they'll come back you know in a couple years after a new album and i'll catch them and yeah just it didn't happen do you think they'll ever do areunion or is it is it done i think i think it's done um i know that i don't know what year if it was like 2016 i think the band did get back together to play one song for their manager wasn't itwhat was that it was at a wedding or something wasn't it it was a wedding or a birthday or yeah some event that had to do with their manager right and it was just like it wasn't like apublic thing it was just you know like for a select group of people but other than that you know i know there's been you know mike and and um peter are i think they have like a sideband ithink or they've done shows together i know bill will pop up every now and again but i i think they'll only do a one-off for a special occasion.

I don't ever think there'll be another tour, but I could see them if it was important enough cause or something.

[14:45] Yeah. I could see at least maybe the three of them. I don't know if like bill would partake, but like I can see them maybe getting back together for a one-off, but.

[14:54] You know, like, like, let's say there was like another live aid or something.

That's right. And it was very important. I could see that. Okay.

But I don't think it, cause every time they get interviewed Michael or, or Mike, um, you know, for these reissues and whatnot that they've been doing over the years, it's always, that's thelast question that always gets asked in the interview, you know, are you guys ever going to come back together?

And they're like, no, we're, we're happy with what we're doing.

We're all doing other things.

And we don't hate each other we just we think we've we've said all we wanted to say you know it's really a unique position for a band to be in to do that you know like not a lot of bandshang their hat up at the end of the day a lot of them continue to tour and i'm looking at you the who and i'm looking at you the rolling stones um you know you're 80 years old might betime to sit down even though the last record hackney diamonds was not so bad uh i don't know that i want to see them live you know but that's just me yeah no i totally understand there'ssome bands of even i like where i'm kind of like you know i think maybe your best days are behind you you know right at least when it comes to recording new music i mean some bandscan still sound great live hell billy joel's still out there performing music that's right he although actually as of the quarter of this episode today he actually released his first song in like twodecades or something that's nuts oh i'll have to to give that a spin it's it's pretty good i i heard it once this morning um but yeah like he he still tours every year but he doesn't write newmusic you know well we have a catalog like his yeah you don't really need yeah you don't need to well speaking of a great catalog and speaking of spinning tunes what do you say we playcarnival of sorts parentheses boxcars sounds great to me let's give it a listen let's do it.

[20:30] Alright, well that was Carnival of Sorts, Boxcars. What do you think about this song? Is this a banger?

Is this a song that, you know, deserves to be a fan favorite?

I think. Or is this like a deep cut? Is this like, you know, it's good, but it's...

No, I don't think, like, okay, so based on a couple things. So, based on what you told us before the song about them reintroducing it into their set in 2000, or 1993.

[21:00] To me or was it 2003 2003 yeah 2003 okay long time it went a long time but clearly it was something they liked and clearly it was something their fans like they played it you know150 times uh that's a lot um for a band that you know toured a lot in the 80s but didn't tour so much after that for me personally i think i love the clean guitar uh but the chorus gets heavyEven though the guitar stays clean.

I love, I love the baseline. Like it just sounds like he's dancing, um, on the fretboard there, like at times, like there is just some great, you know, bass licks in there.

[21:44] Uh, I love Michael's tone. tone and as i mentioned before the song i think that that chorus break is really quite the hook especially with that vocal phrasing you know just real coolyeah i think this song the the hook is the chorus like that's the part of the song that really draws you in yeah i will say the song starts off very interestingly like different kind of than anyrem song it starts off with that carnival kind of like creepy sounding music yeah um i don't know exactly what you call it but yeah it sounds like you're in this like hellish uh carnival uhand then you get those that you know bass riff from from mike and and bill's really energetic drums.

[22:37] And then, you know, you get launched into the verse of the song.

And I have kind of a question because when I listen to the verses of the song, especially like Peter's guitar tone, it still has that like kind of jingle sound, right?

[22:50] Yeah. Like he's, you know, playing those like nice kind of open chords.

But the tone of the guitar sounds a little bit more dated.

It sounds more like 80s, more than like Gardening in the Night or Wolves Lower.

And it gives me like hints of like other bands like almost like the cure even though i'm not i i don't know a lot of the cures music like it's this song kind of feels more like a band like thecure than almost rem in a sense to me i was gonna say the guitar tone to me reminds me of like the birds or you know something in the early 70s like where there's like not not the 70s notthe black sabbath zeppelin 70s but like that real clean sound i guess the birds are sort of the 60s too but uh just that real clean sound like no distortion and like you said the open chords itjust rings you know and it sounds um it sounds very simple you know it is yeah i mean i think this song in particular too peter's there's not a lot of riffs going on right like gardening atnight um and other songs we're going to cover like on murmur like it's a lot more straightforward and at times i really feel like it's mike's bass line that is almost playing more the melodicmelodies.

[24:13] Uh and that and that's the other besides the chorus i think mike's playing is phenomenal on this song i think too yeah like it's really really thank it yeah.

[24:24] It's what really pushes him and actually and bill because you get that pre-chorus where michael's singing um gentlemen don't get caught which is that first time he sings it it's thedrums are straightforward but the second time he sings it bill starts doing this kind of like double time feel and does like a little fill that kind of brings you into the chorus that must be whyit feels heavier to me the chorus yeah the chorus almost feels like they're going faster than before like yeah i think the drumming just makes it sound like they're there it just soundsheavier it sounds a little the chorus is fantastic i mean to me i like the verses and i think with the early stuff michael tends to repeat a lot of the like there's really only one verse and onechorus lyrically yeah and that happens a lot on this ep and even on murmur um but i'm okay with that because there's still a lot of dynamics in the song yeah um even like i noticed thismorning i was listening to the song again and like that intro it like it's great because it's it sounds very dark and mysterious but like when the verse kicks in with like the the guitars andeverything.

[25:38] It sounds like the production sounds more full so that intro really first of all there's almost like two intros because like there's like the carnival music yeah which is like weird andthen there's that bass intro with the drums you're like okay this is cool but it still sounds kind of faint it sounds a little far away and then when the verse kicks in and everyone's you know.

[26:01] Entered into the song it really feels full but i still think it has kind of that 80s a little bit i don't know if it's the production or the guitar tone like it is clean and he's still playingthings that definitely do give me you know shades of the birds but i i do think with this song it has a little bit of that 80s which isn't bad maybe this is not my favorite decade of music butproduce yes typically but with this band it's not like that usually like their 80s work you know i just can't get over that this is like the fourth song we've covered, and the swagger that thisband has like the confidence that they have in these songs and they should be confident these are great songs but they're primordial ooze at this point Like, they're just forming, and yetthese songs are so mature.

[26:59] Yeah, there's complexity, because even just looking at these three songs, like, I feel like this song is kind of a mix between the first two.

It has the darkness that Wolves Lower has, you know? Yeah.

But it has the catchiness of Gardening at Night. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that's where my appreciation of this from the song has come from.

Like, I think before I was just like, oh, this is kind of another fast tempo rock song on the EP.

But I listening to like the dynamics, I'm like, there's a lot going on in the song.

And lyrically, too. I mean, even though we can't really pinpoint what the song is about, like even like the beginning of the song, like he's singing these like, you know, kind of one word,two words.

Word phrases secret stigma reaping wheel diminish and it's just strangers to the to these parts it's like he's setting up he it's like it's like he's writing for a movie it's like he's, watching amovie and and transcribing it into lyrics.

[28:07] Yeah and you know reading through the song yeah it's not super specific and like i said the you know the chorus and the verses kind of repeat themselves but you know i i still thinkthat a song like this you can get different interpretations and this was one of those other songs where i saw some people's um reactions online to it people who heard the song when it waswas first released and um they had all different types of lyrics wrong like oh really they were singing different different lyrics for some of like the the verses and choruses and um and theni've seen people say you're never going to change my opinion on it like this is how i will forever hear it in my head and i'm like yeah that's cool like and i and i know michael he said likethose early songs he's like and i know for the uh 2008 tours before accelerate came out they were doing these early songs there's a bit in one of the live shows where he actually pulled heprinted lyrics from google he like google searched the lyrics because he didn't know what they were like he couldn't remember them and he was like most of these are wrong wow so evenhe's like yeah these aren't actually the words i sang but i think hilarious at the same time he knows like yeah Yeah, some of these songs didn't have direct meanings, you know. Right.

[29:32] But I do agree with you, like, when you mentioned the confidence that the band has, that really pulls through with this song.

And like you mentioned, Michael's vocals, they're kind of in that perfect range where... They are.

This is sweet, sweet, sweet spot of Michael's stuff. They're a little bit more audible, especially with Gardening at Night, the Chronic Town version.

Like, it's really kind of hard to decipher what he's singing.

Here, it's a lot clearer.

Yeah um but he still kind of gets to show off at the very end of the song where he's kind of dragging out um the very end where he's singing out of town there's like the last couple timeswhere he really just draws out that note and i think that's fantastic he's a very very good singer, and the song has a very interesting ending too um i don't know if you caught it it it fades ashe's like kind of doing these these long notes of him singing the word town it's fading out bill's drumming is still kind of like chaotic like in a good way.

[30:35] And it's a long fade out like it fades out for i think longer than like 10 seconds, but you actually can hear the band finish the song before the fade out's done, But they're stilldecreasing the volume. So it's interesting.

Like, it's a long fade out. But you can hear when, like, Bill does the final, like, you know, crash on the cymbal.

Like, they finish the song, but it's still as they're fading out.

And I think that's interesting, because fade outs, in my opinion, sometimes can be a little cheesy, a little like, why can't you just finish the song, you know?

You know, it's sort of an easy way out production-wise, because you know, if they're going to play it live, they're not fading it out.

But I prefer to look at fade outs as a song just going on forever.

[31:21] That's a great way to look at it. And there's some songs where it is like that.

Again, I'm going to bring them up. Pearl Jam, their song Wishlist.

It ends with him going back into the chorus.

[31:32] And the song fades out and he's still singing lyrics. Yeah.

And some of them are very almost inaudible.

And when they perform the song live they will play the song like an additional five minutes of him just coming up improvving lyrics and in that sense the song does kind of go on foreverthere's a song by bell and sebastian called sleep the clock around that does the same thing it's it just he's going he's he's doing almost a whole other verse as the song fades out and youhave to really crank it to to get what he's saying but there's a part about uh a waitress and it's just really cool i i like when when a band like will do little details like that right yeah yeah andthat that to me is not lazy no if you're there like that's not lazy that's actually creative but yeah like there's a lot of songs from like the 80s where it just fades out and you're like you knowyou know oh, the song has to stop, you know, when they play it live, like you said.

I always go to Journey, Don't Stop Believing. Right.

Like, that song fades out, but I know there's a lot of live versions where they just, they do the don't stop, and then it's a hard cut, and they just stop.

[32:49] And I kind of, like, I wish you would have done that on the album version, the studio version. Like, that's cool.

I talked to a producer once, and he said it was very funny, because I said, when you're cutting an album, Are you at all thinking about how it's going to be arranged live?

[33:08] And he said, no, he said, I'm out to make the best record that I can make.

And I don't fucking care what they do.

He didn't say it quite so harsh, but he didn't care what they do, you know, once they go live with it, you know, like, so I thought that was really interesting.

So some of these choices aren't always the band's choice, you know, especially, especially early on when a band is young.

Mitch easter has some you know has some sway in the studio so and i feel like a lot of bands early stuff like even rem like they probably were playing a lot of these songs live first beforethey got into the studio to record them yeah so they're maybe thinking of the song as we're perfecting it while they're still playing it live but like you said the producer's like no i'm notthinking about a live setting at all like i'm i'm here for the album yeah and in this case i this this song is great.

I, you know, like I said, I think it's, I've underrated it for a long time and maybe with, without even doing this podcast, I would not have found this, you know, appreciation for it that I donow.

One sec. Yes. Riley, I'm recording.

[34:22] You're going where?

Oh, okay.

Sorry about that. It's okay. Do you want to finish your thought and then do you remember what you were saying?

I'll use a noise gate and get rid of that, but.

I think I was actually done. I think I just said that. I think I was kind of wrapping up saying that the song was, um, so actually if you want to bring it in and do like a little wrap up, causethat's kind of where I was, I was heading us. Okay. Cool. Like final, final thoughts.

Well, Rico, that's pretty much what I have to say about carnival of sorts, box cars. Uh, have you got anything else you want to point out?

Well, actually I, I, now that you've said the full title, you know, I, we kind of left out the box cars part of it, but, um, Um, I, I did like do some research and, you know, about box cars andthe, like Google definition was their railway freight wagons.

Yeah. And in this case, they're like used for like loading up all the carnival gear and, and moving them from town to town.

That's what I, that's what I took it as too. Yeah.

Yeah. And I, I, I guess that we kind of got a lot of the last night on the lyrics.

I mean, he, that is the chorus really. like you were mentioning, Michael starts the chorus with him singing boxcars and then you get Bill and you get Mike doing that background I pull inand then he sings out of town right after. Yeah, yeah.

[35:48] That's cool imagery again, just kind of bringing it all back to this kind of carnival theme.

I think it's smart and I like when songs have like kind of longer song titles and the parentheses and stuff like that. I think it adds sometimes.

It's cool. It's very REM as well.

Exactly. And yeah, I think this is a great song. And even if it doesn't have a ton of history, I think it's a classic.

What do you think? What do you think out there, listeners?

We're going to have an email address soon to provide for you, but we are on Twitter and on Facebook and Instagram.

So you can check us out there. I'll give you specific links in episodes to come.

But connect with us. We're social. social.

That's what we've got for you this week. So on behalf of Rico, this is JD saying, blink your eyes, and we'll be back.

Track 4:

[36:43] Thanks for listening to the REM breakdown. For more information, visit our site at rembreakdown.com or send us an email at rembreakdown at gmail.com.