Episode 338 with Andee Reardon

Self Defense Gun Stories

Introduction-

Rob- Welcome to episode 338 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Andee Reardon. What has been keeping you so busy?

Andee Reardon

Andee- Hi, Rob. I’ve been busy trying to catch up on work. Over the weekend I taught two women’s classes, basic pistol and the USCCA’s Women’s concealed carry and then Monday night we had Ladies’ night on the range at my local indoor shooting range where we get together. This weekend I’ll be teaching outdoors in the Maine elements so I’m praying for decent weather. I was in Boston last week and sadly had to leave my gun at home. I’m really glad to have it back.

How about you?

Rob- I was sick for most of December, then I was traveling overseas again. I carried when I got back in the US. It’s funny that I was waiting for the rain to stop so I could go for a run, and you were waiting for the snow to stop so you could go to the gym.

I want to thank Roger for his help with the stories this week. I’d like you to help new listeners find us by going to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts. Tell new gun owners why you listen.

Andee- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Katy, Texas.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at home?

You are at home in the middle of the morning on Sunday. You hear someone banging on your apartment door. One of your male roommates opens the door. A man and a woman force their way inside and attack your male roommate. Your roommate fights back.

You grab your gun and shoot your two attackers. You stop shooting when they stop hitting your roommate. The woman falls down. The news reports aren’t clear if you called 911 or if your roommates did. Your neighbors also called 911 to report shots fired. You put your gun away before the police arrive.

EMTs declare your female attacker dead at the scene. The male attacker is taken to the hospital for treatment of life threatening gunshot wounds. You and your roommates give statements to the police. There is another male and two children in the home. They are uninjured. You are not charged with a crime.

Andee- I like that one of the defenders owned a gun. She had it within reach when she needed it. She recognized that the several people who were beating her roommate posed an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat. She shot them until the threat stopped, then she stopped shooting. Someone called 911. The defender met the police with empty hands, and all of the roommates stayed at the scene and gave statements to the police.

Rob- The good news is that there were witnesses. The bad news is that witnesses say things that can get us into trouble. What else do you want your students to do in a situation like this?

Andee- I want all of you to form a plan. That includes children so they know not to open the door and let strangers into your home and they know where to hide for safety. You have the right to open the door, but it is almost always a bad plan. The bad guys outside are not a lethal threat until you open the door. Having a stationary weapon (doesn’t need to be a firearm) by the door so you have access to something if you’re fighting off someone coming through the door. If they’re trying to push their way through, some pepper spray or a hit from a blunt object might back them up enough to get the door shut and locked. But, I’d rather you not open it in the first place. You should be able to see on the other side of the door, by means of a peep hole, window or camera system. Preferably, a way to see out but keep others from seeing in.

Having a safety plan in place with several people in the home means someone can call 911 even while the bad guys are outside beating on the door. Make that someone’s job so they know that they are the person who calls 911 and gets the police on the way. Being armed is part of the plan. An armed defender can yell that they are armed and that the police are on their way.

Part of that safety plan is knowing what to say to police. All members of the household should be informed what they should and shouldn’t say while being questioned. Including, “I do not give permission to search my home, vehicle or person”.

In this kind of situation, I want everyone to retreat away from the front door to another room (your safe room) while the defender is standing behind cover or concealment, yet where she can see the front doorway.

Since there were children in the apartment, the defender’s gun should have either been on her body in a holster, or in a quick-access safe.

Rob- That is a lot to get right. When do your students learn about defending their home?

Andee- We talk about it a little bit in the beginners class since the majority of students are there for self defense reasons. But you have to crawl before you walk, get the basics down first. As students progress and take more advanced classes, we cover things like building your own personal safety plan, how to use effective cover and concealment, etc.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover about this story, or should we go on?

Andee- Our second story happened in Peoria, Illinois.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• • The defender owned a gun which was within quick reach when she needed it.

• The defender recognized that her roommate was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation because he was being attacked by two other people.

• The defender shot both attackers until they stopped hitting her roommate.

• The defender stopped shooting when the threat was over, stayed at the scene and called 911.

• The defender put her gun away when police arrived and gave them a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• Someone banging on your door is not a lethal threat until you either open the door which gives them access or until the door breaks and allows the attackers to enter. DON’T OPEN THE DOOR.

• There were a number of people in the apartment when the attackers started banging on the door. Any one of them could have called 911 while the defender who had a gun could have yelled through the door to the attackers that 911 had been called, that she was armed and that they should leave.

• The defender should have directed that everyone in the apartment retreat away from the door to another room while she took a defensive position behind cover or concealment in sight of the door in case the attackers broke the door down.

• If the attacker were to break down the door then the defender should have fired on them while they were lined up in the “fatal funnel”.

• Since there were children in the apartment, the defender’s gun should have either been on her body or in a quick-access safe.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public?

You’re helping your friend buy a car. He sees a vehicle he likes on Facebook Marketplace. You go with him to look at the car after work. When you get to the location, you see two men waiting for you. They say the car is around the corner. There, you see three more men, and they have guns in their hands. You’re being robbed.

You have a concealed carry license and you’re armed. Your attackers start shooting and you shoot back. Everyone runs. You and your friend are not wounded and you stay nearby. You call 911 and ask for help.

Police and EMTs arrive and you put your gun away. The officers find one of your attackers nearby. He is wounded. EMTs try to save his life but then pronounce him dead at the scene.

You and your friend give statements to the police. You show them your Identification and your carry permit. Your friend shows them the Facebook advertisement. You are not charged with a crime, but the police suggest using the police parking lot to make exchanges.

Andee- I like that the buyer brought a friend, there’s safety in numbers. Unfortunately, the bad guys had more numbers and often do. Sellers can be robbed of their property. Buyers can be robbed of their money. They made a plan since they were going to meet strangers in a strange place. The armed friend had his carry permit, owned a gun, and carried concealed. Good for both of them. I do wonder if they thought something felt off when they were told the vehicle was around the corner… that would seem suspicious to me. When in doubt, trust your gut.

The defender recognized that they were being robbed, and that they faced a lethal threat even before the bad guys started shooting. He shot back and the good guys ran away.

The victims called for help and gave statements to the police.

Rob- There is a lot of information that isn’t covered in the news.

Andee- Plan to meet where there are lights, cameras and witnesses. Ideally, meeting at a police station parking lot during the day might be the best plan. Don’t go alone. Ask a friend or two to go with you and if one or more of you are armed that would be great. Listen to your gut.

Put some distance between you and your partner so you form two separate targets. Keep something like a car between you and the strangers.

Do not bring cash.

Ask one of your friends to record a picture or video of the people you’re meeting and their car’s license plate.

Ideally, I want both of you to be armed.

Rob- This is beyond marksmanship. We want to move, present our firearm without pointing it at our partner, and then shoot multiple moving targets. We want to have done that enough times that it is a habit rather than a deliberate, step by step thought. How do I learn to do that?

Andee- You can learn that through practice at home with an unloaded firearm and taking more advanced classes that teach shooting on the move.

Rob- Where are we headed next?

Andee- Our third story happened in Grafton, Virginia.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• • The defender went with his friend when he was meeting with a stranger(s) to look at a car. The defender brought his carry license and his gun with him.

• The defender and friend were in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when they were surrounded by armed robbers.

• The defender exchanged fire with the attackers and ran. Fortunately, he managed to shoot one of them without getting himself or his friend shot. Hopefully, the defender knew how to move and engage multiple targets.

• The defender stayed at the scene and gave police a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• Meeting a stranger to buy or sell items can be very dangerous so the proper precautions need to be taken.

• Arrange to meet where there are lights, cameras and witnesses. Ideally, meeting at a police station parking lot during the day might be your best bet.

• Don’t go alone. Ask a friend or two to go with you and if one or more of you are armed that would be great.

• Don’t stand together so you make yourselves more difficult targets. Keep some objects, like a car, between you and the stranger.

• DON’T BRING CASH!

• Ask one of your friends to record a video of the people you’re meeting and their car’s license plate.

• This story took place in Peoria, Illinois. That state does not recognize any other state’s carry permit and they don’t have out-of-state concealed carry licenses. They also have a FOID card requirement which is a “Firearm Owners Identification” card which means it’s illegal for an out-of-stater to even possess a firearm in that state. According to the news report, the defender in this story was from out of state so he was not carrying legally. He may or may not be charged with possession and carrying a concealed weapon which in some states is a felony. KNOW THE LAWS WHERE YOU LIVE AND WHERE YOU TRAVEL.

Rob- First this message from the FASTER saves lives.

FASTER saves lives

https://fastersaveslives.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work?

You’re behind the counter at a gas station/ convenience store. It is about 9 AM and the morning rush is over. Another customer walks in and pushes his way behind the counter. He says this is a robbery. You let him have the money. Now the robber pushes you toward the back bathroom.

You’re armed. You present your concealed firearm and shoot your attacker twice. Your first shot hits him in the leg and your second shot hits him in the abdomen. He stops pushing you and you stop shooting.

You step away and call 911 for help. You talk to the dispatcher and ask for police and Emergency Medical Services. You stay on the line, but have to put your phone down when you put your gun away. You give a statement to the police when they arrive. EMS takes your attacker to the hospital for treatment. You have to close the store for the rest of the day as the police collect evidence at the scene.

When your attacker is released from the hospital, he is held without bond in the county jail. He is charged with robbery, abduction by force, possession of stolen property, and also charged with grand larceny from an earlier incident.

You are not charged with a crime.

Andee- Our defender recognized that he was all alone in a store that is frequently targeted by robbers. He planned ahead by purchasing and carrying a gun on his body at work. The defender let the robber take the money out of the register. He used “Tactical Patience” and waited his turn before acting. The defender held his fire until the robber tried to force him into the back bathroom. Robbers move us to a new location because they don’t want to be seen. That is our signal that the fight is on. Never allow yourself to be forced to a new location, the chances of survival drop down as soon as you do.

The news report said that the police were unable to find a weapon at the scene. Even if the robber did not have a weapon and only pretended to hold a gun in his pocket, the act of forced relocation is kidnapping which usually allows for the use of deadly force.

The defender stopped shooting after getting two hits on the bad guy, and the robber stopped pushing him to the back of the store.

Our defender stepped away from the robber. Distance and cover are your friends.

The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and stayed on the line, put the gun away and gave a statement to the police.

Rob- What else do you see in this story?

Andee- This is called close quarters defense where the bad guy is close enough to grab us or grab our gun. It also explains why the bad guy was shot in the leg and the stomach. We have to push the bad guy away so we have room to reach our gun, but that also means our support hand can get between our gun and the bad guy. That takes practice so we don’t shoot ourselves. I give classes in close quarters defense, and that usually comes a few classes after your concealed carry permit.

Once the robber was on the floor and no longer a threat, the defender should have moved all the customers away from the windows and locked the doors so the robber’s friends couldn’t get into the store.

I want you to know how to stop the bleeding if your or a customer were injured. Your business needs a first aid kit. And in that kit should be a tourniquet.

There are generally two types of criminals. The Resource Predators want your stuff like money, cars, jewelry, or credit cards. They want to grab your stuff and run. Process Predators enjoy inflicting pain and humiliation. They want to make you vulnerable and hurt you. The problem is that you can’t tell which is which.

Finally, there should have been security video in the store. Employees need to know how to save and transfer those video files to the police and to your lawyer. If you’re going to carry a gun at work then you need a lawyer to call so he fills out your police report for you.

Rob- Do you talk about that in your use of force classes?

Andee- Yes, it’s very important. Buying and training with a gun is only part of concealed carry. The other part is knowing how to keep yourself safe morally, financially and legally.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Andee- Our fourth story took place Near Austin, Texas.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• • The defender worked at a very dangerous job. He planned ahead by purchasing and carrying a gun on his body at work. If the gun was placed under the counter the defender may not have been able to get to it in time or the robber may have taken the gun first.

• The defender let the robber take the money out of the register. He used “Tactical Patience” and waited his turn before acting.

• The defender held his fire until the robber tried to force him into the back bathroom. The news report said that the police were unable to find a weapon at the scene. Even if the robber did not have a weapon and only pretended to hold a gun in his pocket, the act of forced relocation is probably kidnapping which usually allows for the use of deadly force.

• The defender stopped shooting after two hits and the robber stopped pushing him to the back.

• The defender stepped away from the robber. Distance and cover are your friends.

• The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and stayed on the line, put the gun away and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• The defender complied with the robber until the robber tried to force him into the back room. The odds of surviving a forced relocation are very low. The only reason a criminal relocates you is so he can do something to you that he can’t do where you are. THIS SHOULD BE YOUR LINE IN THE SAND!

• Once the robber was on the floor and no longer a threat, the defender should have moved all customers away from the windows and locked the doors so the robber’s friends couldn’t get in.

• Did the defender know how to stop the bleeding if a customer or himself had been injured or shot? Did the store have a first aid kit?

• Did the defender know how to hold the robber at gunpoint without putting himself in further danger?

• Did the store have security cameras? Sometimes they can act as a deterrent as well as record the incident.

• Criminals come in two types: Resource Predators and Process Predators. The Resource Predators want your stuff like money, cars, jewelry. Process Predators enjoy inflicting pain and humiliation. The problem is that you can’t tell which is which from just looking at them. Sometimes it’s too late when you finally figure it out.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at home?

You’re in your front yard pulling weeds in the middle of the morning. A stray pitbull runs up to you. You don’t know the dog and he doesn’t have any tags. You retreat to your garage and the dog follows you. You try to shoo the dog out of your garage with a broom, but that doesn’t work. You grab a hatchet, and use the blunt side of the hatchet to frighten the dog. He moves toward you and you retreat into your home through the garage door.

The stray pitbull pushes past you to enter your home. He bites your dog and then drags your dog to your bedroom. You grab your gun from the nightstand and shoot the pitbull twice at the base of his skull. Now he lets go of your dog.

You call 911 and your veterinarian. After the police arrive, you take your dog to the vet’s office. He was at the office for three days before you got him back.

Andee- I like that the defender climbed the ladder of force. She tried to push the attacking dog away twice. Each time the defender increased the amount of force she used until she had to use lethal force.

Most states allow the use of deadly force against a dog that is attacking other animals or humans. Again, we have to know the laws in our state.

The defender was able to shoot the attacking dog twice without hitting her own dog, and that can be hard to do. It is another version of close quarters contact where you might have to grab your attacker so you move with them as you shoot.

The defender called 911 so the police could find the pitbull’s owner.

Rob- We generally want to call 911 any time we had to touch our gun in anger. It is better to call and find out they are not interested than to have someone else call.

What else do you see?

Andee- Our defender didn’t have her gun when she was out in public. That is a problem if her dog was attacked or if she was attacked in her front yard. Carry on your body so your defensive tools are with you when you need them.

Maybe she should have been carrying pepper spray too. It’s a great tool and since it’s non-lethal, you don’t have to wait until last minute to have it ready.

As trivial as this sounds, I want you to call your lawyer even if the attacker is a dog.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• • The defender tried to push the attacking dog away twice without success.

• Each time the defender increased the amount of force she used until she had to use lethal force.

• Most states allow the use of deadly force against a dog that is attacking other animals or humans.

• The defender was able to shoot the attacking dog twice without hitting her own dog.

• The defender called 911 so the police could find the attacking dog’s owner.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• On the body carrying is the quickest way to access your firearm. Anyone, anywhere and anytime you can be attacked by four-legged, two-legged or even no-legged (snakes) predators.

• The defender was very fortunate that the dog did not attack her in her yard since she wasn’t carrying her gun with her. The outcome may have been quite different.

• A gun is not always the legal or the most appropriate self-defense tool. According to the FBI, you are five times more likely to need a non-lethal weapon as opposed to a firearm. KNOW THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE LAWS.

Exit-

Rob- That wraps up this episode. Andee, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Andee- Look for me at East Coast School of Safety and on my facebook and Instagram pages with the same name.

Rob- After you look at Andee articles and classes, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Andee- We share this podcast with you for free.
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Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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