037: Orchestra Players Anonymous

Stand Partners for Life

Twelve-step programs have helped millions of people, including some of our colleagues. But their constant references to a “higher power” rub some people the wrong way.

As orchestral musicians, we only know one “higher power”: the conductor, who rules every aspect of our musical lives! Here are some slightly rewritten twelve steps toward embracing musical anonymity in the orchestra of your choice.

The Twelve Orchestral Steps

1. Admit you are powerless over your musical decisions and life has become unmanageable.
2. Surrender those decisions to a higher power to reclaim musical sanity.
3. Turn your musical life over to that higher power (the conductor).
4. Make a searching and fearless inventory of your audition self.
5. Admit the nature of your wrongs to yourself and a practice buddy.
6. Be ready to have the conductor remove your defects of character.
7. Actually ask the conductor to humbly remove those defects.
8. Make a list of colleagues you have musically harmed, and seek to make amends.
9. Make direct amends to these colleagues, especially if you must sit near them.
10. Continue taking inventory and promptly admit wrong accidentals.
11. Through meditation and score study, improve conscious contact with the conductor.
12. After your musical awakening, carry this message to other musicians in the orchestra.

Quotes

“If you join an orchestra, you’re just a shareholder, but you’re still receiving dividends.” — Akiko Tarumoto [0:08:47]

“Getting a job is truth time.” — Akiko Tarumoto [0:11:12]

“There is that hope that joining this group, it’s like there’s a power greater than yourself. There’s power in experience.” — @natesviolin [0:17:57]

“It’s okay to be wrong a lot as long you admit it.” — @natesviolin [0:24:20]

“You could follow these steps and actually be a great orchestral player.” — @natesviolin [0:27:46]

“There’s just no way around the anonymity being an orchestral player, but there are positive things about being in an orchestra nevertheless.” — Akiko Tarumoto [0:27:52]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

• Colburn
• Sir Laurence Olivier
• LA Phil
• Chris Still

Transcript

EPISODE 37

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] NC: Hello and welcome back to Stand Partners for Life. This is Orchestra Players Anonymous. I’m Nathan Cole.

[00:00:08] AT: We’re supposed to be anonymous.

[00:00:10] NC: Oh! I already broke the rule. All right.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:00:27] NC: Well, I have to figure you already know who we are. That’s Akiko Tarumoto over there. Welcome back. If you haven’t seen the website in a little while, head on over to standpartnersforlife.com. We got a bit of a new look and as it befits the new year, 2020 episodes of Stand Partners for Life. There you can make sure you’re subscribed on iTunes, on Google Podcasts, however you get your podcasts.

Today we are talking about the anonymous nature of orchestra playing, and this actually came up recently. I teach the violin orchestral rep class at Colburn now, and I got a really good question just today actually.

[00:01:10] AT: What was that question?

[00:01:13] NC: That’s for that prompt. They asked, they said, “Well, we have a friend,” who that’s always kind of a tipoff, but they said, “We have a friend who says that he would never play in orchestra because you would lose your artistic identity. You’d become anonymous.”

First of all, I love how you can’t really talk about orchestra. It’s kind of like how kids learn about the birds and the bees on the playground. It’s like playground wisdom.

[00:01:43] AT: You can’t talk about –

[00:01:44] NC: Well, I just feel like there’s not a constant dialogue about orchestra playing. You have to kind of ask in secret like, “I have a friend who says this is how it works.”

[00:01:53] AT: Right. Well, sure. I mean, we all know why that is. It’s like the vast majority of working musicians, working – Not pianists obviously, but that were out there and orchestra is not being soloists or chamber musicians necessarily, right?

[00:02:12] NC: When you’re in school, the ideal is not to play in an orchestra.

[00:02:16] AT: Right. It’s like a weird version of your expectations and your training or something. You’re supposed to want to do something not anonymous and “better.”

[00:02:27] NC: Right. Well, that’s what we’re going to talk about. But I will say the folks in my class at Colburn, I love the attitude and they’re asking because they really want to know. I honestly do believe they have a friend who said this. They asked and I told them when they said, “Is it true that when you join the orchestra you can become anonymous?” I said, “Absolutely.” I mean, if you just join the orchestra and that’s all the playing you do, you will very quickly lose the ability to –

[00:02:59] AT: Even if it’s not the only playing you do. It is tough to bust out of that rut.

[00:03:04] NC: Yeah. We thought that we would call this episode Orchestra Players Anonymous, and obviously we’re having a little fun with the 12-step programs, AA, and we should say that we’ve had friends and colleagues who have struggled with addiction and found these programs very helpful. So, while not at all demeaning these particular programs. I think we’re drawn to the fact that, that concept, they talk about this higher power and an orchestra that are really going to be one higher power.

[00:03:43] AT: Who’s that?

[00:03:44] NC: Who’s the higher power?

[00:03:47] AT: Prompting you.

[00:03:49] NC: You’re really playing along today. Obviously, the conductor who rules our lives in orchestra. Before I took my first job in orchestra, I did have a friend who I’d play a lot of chamber music with and they said, “How can you do this? How can you join an orchestra?” They actually used the word anonymous, and they said, “You’re going to become anonymous. You’re going to lose every part of you that’s you. You’re going to lose all your musical decision making.”

[00:04:16] AT: That’s interesting. I never thought about that. Maybe I should have.

[00:04:19] NC: You never got the warning?

[00:04:21] AT: No. I’m sure it’s because of people I interacted with thought this is probably the best I could do. Probably like, “We’re not going to warn her. We’ll tell her this is really – She can’t really aspire if she’s really lucky.”

[00:04:33] NC: It’s best that you remain anonymous.

[00:04:37] AT: Yeah. You were going to be lucky to remain anonymous, lady.

[00:04:41] NC: I did get that warning and I really – Everything in me cried out against that. I was like, “I will not. You’ll see.” Sometime in that very first season, and this is was in the same Paul Chamber Orchestra. So not even a giant machine, but a chamber orchestra and I still felt, “Who am I? What am I doing? Do I still sound like Nathan when I play or is the transformation complete?”

[00:05:04] AT: It’s possible that my style of playing, like it’s always been so bland or something that like maybe people thought that sound belongs in an orchestra.

[00:05:16] NC: You mean like how certain people’s voices kind of sound like newscasters?

[00:05:20] AT: Yeah, like you’re not going to be Laurence Olivier. You’re going to be like the weather guy.

[00:05:26] NC: So, it just fits.

[00:05:27] AT: Maybe that’s what they heard me and they were like, “Okay, weather guy.”

[00:05:30] NC: Okay. I can say I’ve heard you play on the very recent side and nothing generic about you.

[00:05:37] AT: Yeah. I think I have a good sense of how things are “supposed to sound”. Whatever that’s good for, I think orchestra probably – It’s good for orchestra.

[00:05:49] NC: But you could easily see how it could happen, right? How somebody –

[00:05:53] AT: Well, has happened obviously, right?

[00:05:56] NC: Yeah. I mean, that’s why people warn and that’s why there are the rumors, school yard rumors about –

[00:06:01] AT: Yeah. I don’t think it’s like so much you’re going to lose how you play. I think you’re going to lose recognition. That’s certainly a huge deal. You’re going to start being comfortable being anonymous and you’re not going to want to seek the recognition, but your ego will still kind of wonder what happened. There’s some of that.

[00:06:18] NC: Right. For the purpose of this episode, as we rewrite the 12 steps, I think we’ve got to put ourselves in the shoes of someone who – Let’s say we have to imagine we’re someone that welcomes that. They want to become anonymous. They want to just blend in, fit in and not have to make any musical decisions anymore. We’re going to have to pretend that we’re –

[00:06:44] AT: Wait. This isn’t a very good advertisement for joining an orchestra, but sure.

[00:06:48] NC: I mean, I think we can – We have always resisted this even so in some of our darker moments. I think we might crave or embrace the anonymous aspect. But I think in this episode we’re going to pretend that we’re one of those folks that just wants to become anonymous forever.

[00:07:09] AT: Okay.

[00:07:10] NC: Yeah. These would be the 12 steps to do it.

[00:07:13] AT: Okay. I’ll play along.

[00:07:14] NC: Yeah. The 12 steps of Orchestra Players Anonymous, and the first one is we admitted we are powerless over our musical decisions and that our musical lives had become unmanageable, right? That’s the first step. I’ve rewritten it and –

[00:07:32] AT: Yeah.

[00:07:33] NC: Well, because just imagine. I mean, we were saying, you’re playing in string quartets. You’re playing in smaller groups and you’re constantly having conflict with other people and they’re telling you that you don’t phrase clearly and need to play more here.

[00:07:51] AT: Right, and you were sort of burdened with these decisions that you had to contribute.

[00:07:55] NC: Right. Because you’ve got to argue against that or you’ve got to say, “No. I disagree,” or, “No. I like to play it shorter and here’s why.” Maybe you just get tired of that. It’s become unmanageable.

[00:08:07] AT: From what I see, it doesn’t seem like people get tired up. Sure.

[00:08:10] NC: Certainly, some people might. If that happened and all that stress became unmanageable, then you would admit that you’re powerless over all these musical decisions that you have to make.

[00:08:21] AT: Right.

[00:08:22] NC: All right. Well, that’s step one. If you’re going to assume this character, then you would have to admit that.

[00:08:30] AT: Okay. All right.

[00:08:31] NC: Step two is we came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to musical sanity.

[00:08:40] AT: Yeah. I think I got there.

[00:08:41] NC: Was that power greater than yourself, a conductor?

[00:08:45] AT: I think it was just like the idea that if you join an orchestra, you can – Sort of like you’re just a shareholder, but you’re still receiving dividends.

[00:08:55] NC: Okay. It’s more like the power greater than yourself is the orchestra, the collective.

[00:08:59] AT: Yeah.

[00:09:00] NC: Okay.

[00:09:01] AT: I like that idea. I think when I was looking around for what I was going to do with my life, it’s not going to be all the pressure won’t be on me and all the glory won’t be mine either, but it will be sort of a fair trade.

[00:09:15] NC: Okay, because it’s about to get more personal, more singular in the next rule. I’m not sure that higher power can still be the whole orchestra. We made a decision to turn our will and our musical lives over to the care of – In the original rule, it’s God, as we understood him. I think it’s pretty clear it’s a single – I think all signs are pointing to a conductor.

[00:09:42] AT: I still think you can apply it to the orchestra, the blob. The entity

[00:09:50] NC: In any case, you have to make a decision to turn your musical will and life over to that higher power as you understand it, or him, and most conductors at this point are him, although we do see more and more female conductors at the L.A. Phil.

[00:10:08] AT: I get in trouble.

[00:10:10] NC: Get in trouble for saying that we see more female conductors?

[00:10:13] AT: No. For saying that mostly they’re male.

[00:10:16] NC: No. I mean, they have been overwhelmingly male. I mean, most people think it’s kind of funny that these original rules always talk about a him anyway.

[00:10:25] AT: True.

[00:10:26] NC: This is interesting, because step four made us searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Would you call that part of the audition process really? Because I feel like you kind of have to do that when you’re auditioning.

[00:10:41] AT: Yeah.

[00:10:41] NC: Searching id fearless moral inventory. I mean, that’s pretty much –

[00:10:45] AT: Yeah, it describes an audition.

[00:10:47] NC: Because you’ve talked about many times how you really have to come to terms with what your strengths and weaknesses are.

[00:10:53] AT: Yeah, not in a depressing way though. I think that you – It’s like a chance to show off your side. But for the purposes of this, sure. It’s also daily taking inventory of how things are going.

[00:11:05] NC: Yeah. Because I think overall this is supposed to be depressing either. I mean, it’s truth time.

[00:11:10] AT: Yeah. I mean, sure. I mean, getting a job is truth time.

[00:11:15] NC: Let’s say you’re looking at your weaknesses. I mean, what does that mean in terms of the audition?

[00:11:20] AT: Yeah. You really are trying to disguise them. I’m not sure that works for this particular analogy. It doesn’t work, because the thing you’re not supposed to do in the 12-step programming is hide. That’s the basis of insecurities, is sort of things that you feel that you’re scrolling away from light of day.

[00:11:41] NC: Could you really hide who you are as a player?

[00:11:46] AT: Yes. We’ve seen it. No names. We’ve seen it. It’s anonymous.

[00:11:53] NC: It’s true.

[00:11:57] AT: Maybe we should do an orchestra auditions anonymous.

[00:12:01] NC: This is really more of a whole life, whole musical life type process. But, on, that also would be – You say you can hide it.

[00:12:10] AT: In an audition? Yeah.

[00:12:13] NC: Okay.

[00:12:15] AT: You’re not refusing to play things. Obviously, that doesn’t work, but you can really look out not having ugly little secrets not be unearthed.

[00:12:25] NC: But in any case, you would have to do that inventory, the moral inventory, in order to know what things you’d even want to hide.

[00:12:33] AT: Well, no not really, because the audition, it’s not up to you what they’re going to ask. Some ways, yeah, you’re facing, like they could ask anything. You’re not willfully hiding it. Sure.

[00:12:44] NC: I mean, for you to do your best, you should know what your strengths and weaknesses are.

[00:12:50] AT: Yes. Yeah, because as we’ve gone over this, the choices that you have in an audition, such as choosing your repertoire, even like your tempos and your dynamics that you’re capable of doing. If you’re savvy about it, sure, you can sort of draw people’s attention to your strength and hopefully away from your weakness. But I mean, there are certain weaknesses that once they get exposed, it’s like you’re out.

[00:13:20] NC: Yeah. There are some strategery as they say.

[00:13:24] AT: Yeah, for sure.

[00:13:26] NC: All right. Step five, next step, is admitted to, well, this higher power. Admitted to higher power to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Well, this is the concept of the accountability partner, really. It could be like your audition buddy, your practice partner, your practice buddy with whom you hide nothing.

[00:13:56] AT: I mean, for me, that’s really you.

[00:13:59] NC: Okay.

[00:14:00] AT: Is that helpful? Sure. I’m not sure everybody has that. It’s really helpful to have you as that person.

[00:14:09] NC: We’re lucky in that way because we’ve been there for each other for so many years and we do share this musical life. It was interesting hearing our friend, our colleague, Chris Still talk about this, and he has his website, if you haven’t seen it, honestypill.com. He works a lot with audition prep and he was telling me his story once about how he really had an audition partner or even more than that, a practice buddy.

He was living in an apartment where he couldn’t practice. I mean, he plays trumpet. I think most places you live, you can really practice. He agreed to play a certain number of services, I think it was, at a church. In exchange, they would give him access to their space. I forget if it was a whole gymnasium. I think it was some kind of big space and he had the key. Especially at night, he could go there and then he had this practice buddy, another trumpet player, and they would make appointments to go meet there at a certain time. I think it was usually in the evening. For that reason, he couldn’t really cancel because he knew the other person would be there waiting for him before cellphones.

If we say we’re going to show up at the church basement or whatever at 9PM –

[00:15:32] AT: Just play for each other.

[00:15:33] NC: Yeah, you got to be there. Play for each other. I think they took the – At that time, it was the Walkman Pro or maybe the minidisc player or something like that, record. Yeah, this idea of admitted to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. I don’t think it gets more naked than playing for someone else.

[00:15:56] AT: Yeah. You’re really going to do that. Yeah, it’s hard to schedule those times to say, “Can you listen to me play?”

[00:16:02] NC: Yeah.

[00:16:04] AT: And then not move them around. You’re like, “Actually, do you mind if we do it in two weeks instead of now?”

[00:16:09] NC: I’m not warmed up. But if it’s part of a whole process with steps, then you might do it.

[00:16:17] AT: It’s true. But you have to do it. Sure.

[00:16:20] NC: These steps are – Obviously, this is more about the whole life than just auditioning. Now, some of these steps as in the originals, they got – They’re a little bit the same. I still –

[00:16:32] AT: In case you try to get out of any of them, they’re like, “We got you.”

[00:16:36] NC: Right.

[00:16:37] AT: Step 9 and 3.

[00:16:39] NC: We’re up to step 6. I still think it’s funny to think this is a conductor, but you can think of it how you like. We were entirely ready to have the higher power remove all of these defects of character. Because remember that we’ve admitted that we’re powerless over having to make these musical decisions. We’ve revealed what our weaknesses are and now we’re admitting that we’re ready to have someone else remove all these defects.

[00:17:09] AT: Okay. But I don’t really think it’s how it works.

[00:17:13] NC: But if you were going to be someone that sought anonymity in an orchestra, you might feel that joining that orchestra was finally – That was actually going to make you a great musician. You could remove all the defects in your playing.

[00:17:27] AT: Or how about the defects in how you approach music? You’ve always felt so – Because I could personally say like when I perform, there’s so much pressure. I feel like there’s so dysfunctional, this relationship with playing in public and stuff. But when you join the orchestra, it’s like you’re going to be cleanse with those defects. You’re going to have somebody there who finally makes you understand why you love doing this.

[00:17:55] NC: Yeah. I mean, there is that hope that joining this group, it’s like there’s a power greater than yourself. There’s power in experience.

[00:18:05] AT: I mean, we have friends like that. We know people who – I mean, that’s what we do when we joined orchestra. We agreed to start to hear ourselves as part of this group, and therefore you take on that identity of the group. It does seem like sometimes people do that not in a great way. They’re not the best players necessarily, but they love just being associated with this group.

[00:18:31] NC: Right. After a while can be sort of a crutch if you forget. I mean, I think part of the point of these steps is that you’re supposed to keep thinking of them too. If you ignore your own personal defects, you can pretend that because you’re part of the group, that they don’t exist.

The next step, step seven, largely the same. Well, step six, you’re ready to have these defects remove. Step seven, you humbly ask to have them removed. I guess it’s just taking it literally one step further. I’m not really sure what the equivalent is here.

[00:19:09] AT: It’s just showing up for rehearsal and seeing what the person on the podium’s –

[00:19:11] NC: Is that like asking questions at the conductor in rehearsal?

[00:19:17] AT: That’s not humble. That’s the opposite of humble.

[00:19:19] NC: Okay.

[00:19:19] AT: That’s fighting the anonymity.

[00:19:22] NC: Well, maybe it’s asking your stand partner for help, because that takes humility.

[00:19:28] AT: Yeah, but I also think you need to that. You probably shouldn’t be there.

[00:19:33] NC: In any case, you’re humbly asking for a shortcoming to be removed. Step eight is – I thought this is a justifiably famous step. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. In the course of an orchestral career, you probably rack up a fair number of offenses. I mean, what counts are harming a colleague? If you come in wrong really loud, is that –

[00:20:04] AT: No.

[00:20:05] NC: Do you have to tally those up?

[00:20:06] AT: No. I think like making a face if something goes wrong.

[00:20:11] NC: Okay. Yeah, that’s not good.

[00:20:14] AT: Yeah, anything where you’re sort of giving in to your base or instincts and reacting to something.

[00:20:20] NC: If you’re asking the conductor a question, maybe that’s something that you need to tally up and make amends for.

[00:20:26] AT: Depends on the question, but yeah, we’ve seen once. I mean, really doing wrong to your colleagues. I think playing like super loud because you think you sound so great and basically drowning people out.

[00:20:38] NC: That’s true.

[00:20:39] AT: Hanging on to notes too long so you can hear yourself.

[00:20:43] NC: All kinds of bad orchestra habits. I mean, wouldn’t it be amazing if let’s say they were a serial offender as far as that went and the end of a year they came around to everybody and said, “I realized that in every loud and fast passage I’ve been playing a lot louder than everyone else and hanging on to every note really long.”

[00:21:03] AT: We fantasize about these things. Every day I go to work, wishing that somebody would – Many people would embrace step eight.

[00:21:12] NC: Well. So then step nine is actually making direct amends to such people wherever possible except when to do so would injure them or others. I mean, direct amends to the orchestra. I mean, I’ve heard of situations where people, they really didn’t talk for a long time and then there was some kind of reconciliation, and it’s always a nice story. I like hearing about those things. I actually never had a big beef or feud in orchestra.

[00:21:43] AT: Can you share one? I don’t remember.

[00:21:44] NC: Yeah, just like wind principals who didn’t speak for a long time and then usually there was some kind of intermediary –

[00:21:53] AT: The ones I’m thinking didn’t end well.

[00:21:56] NC: No. I mean, I think a lot of them don’t end well.

[00:21:58] AT: Okay.

[00:21:59] NC: But there are ones that do and then that’s a case of whether you want to call it making amends or just brokering a truce. Maybe hard to make direct amends in an orchestra, but we should make a note to do it if we’ve harmed someone.

[00:22:18] AT: No thanks.

[00:22:20] NC: All right. Well, step 10 is –

[00:22:22] AT: A long time to be there –

[00:22:24] NC: I know. Yeah. It’s stand partners for life. Not just for a week. Step 10 is continue to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

[00:22:36] AT: I do that all the time. I do that every day.

[00:22:39] NC: Well, I feel like you admit things to me all the time, but these aren’t things where you’re actually wrong.

[00:22:48] AT: No. But I feel like I’m always trying to work on stuff and I’m always finding things that weren’t totally right.

[00:22:55] NC: Well, I mean you do that to a fault.

[00:22:58] AT: Yeah. I got that one covered.

[00:23:01] NC: That’s true. I mean, this is not like a test for you to see if you’re fine with all these steps.

[00:23:06] AT: That’s what it feels like. It feels like I’m being like quizzed about my 12-step worthiness.

[00:23:13] NC: Remember, this is only really if you truly wanted to be anonymous in the orchestra. But I was actually thinking of times when I have been concert master and maybe phrased something in a way that wasn’t great.

[00:23:30] AT: Oh, never. You mean like verbally?

[00:23:34] NC: Yeah, just this concept of when you’re wrong, promptly admitting it.

[00:23:39] AT: Everyone always – They say like you are the best person they’ve ever encountered in terms of like being able to give direction on a really neutral non-hostile way.

[00:23:52] NC: I’m maybe overly careful about that.

[00:23:55] AT: I don’t think there’s any situation where you’ve said anything in a way that you need to apologize for.

[00:24:02] NC: Well, let’s say you make a Boeing mistake or you tell the group something that you heard and then it turns out the conductor said the opposite thing. I mean, I think it’s important to – It is important to admit it right away.

[00:24:16] AT: Well, sure, and you do. I mean, it’s the way people respect you.

[00:24:20] NC: It’s okay to be wrong a lot as long you admit it. Step 11, this is like one of those constitutional amendments that has a whole bunch of clauses. It’s a long one. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with the higher power as we understood him. Praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out.

[00:24:42] AT: There is that. I mean, that’s what an orchestra is. In the end, all you’re really hoping is that you carried out your instructions properly.

[00:24:51] NC: Would you call these instructions from the conductor or more from the composer? Let’s say we’re playing a Beethoven symphony, would you you’re say trying to improve your conscious contact with Beethoven as we understand him?

[00:25:04] AT: In the end, you’re right. I mean, it has to be – You have to think that the conductor is being like an intermediary. Otherwise, everybody’s got like a slightly different opinion of how this should go or it’s not going to really work if you got all those different ideas. Hopefully the conductor is the unifying force and they’re supposed to be.

[00:25:32] NC: Praying only for knowledge of his will [inaudible 00:25:34].

[00:25:35] AT: I do that. I pray.

[00:25:39] NC: Please let me know how many beats prep we’re getting. That happened in rehearsal today. We had [inaudible 00:25:47] was up there and he said, “I’ll give you 3 4 and then you play, and it was about 8 times in a row. It was like, 3 [inaudible 00:25:57]. Then he said, “All right. Wait, one more.” We’ll see what happens in the concert. See how many people have meditated.

[00:26:08] AT: He’s a little scary. I feel like that will be the unifying force.

[00:26:13] NC: I know. I’m going to get that looked from him and it’s going to freak me out and I’m going to come in on four instead of waiting.

[00:26:18] AT: Yeah.

[00:26:19] NC: I’m jinxing myself.

[00:26:22] AT: It’s a tough repertoire this week.

[00:26:24] NC: Finally, step 12, having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other orchestra musicians and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

[00:26:38] AT: Well, that’s tricky. A lot of conflict comes from trying to get everybody on the same page. I feel like you just get thrown in the whole 12 steps again.

[00:26:50] NC: I think that’s part of the point, right? They can be repeated as necessary.

[00:26:54] AT: It supposed to feel like Sisyphus. I mean –

[00:26:59] NC: I’m pushing that boulder back up the hill.

[00:27:01] AT: It’s like 12 steps to be repeated all day, every day. No.

[00:27:05] NC: No. Not every day. I mean –

[00:27:08] AT: If only everybody obeyed these tenets, I think we’d be in a lot better shape.

[00:27:13] NC: Well, that’s what step 12 says, that you share it with other orchestra musicians and it’s kind of what we’re doing in this podcast, right?

[00:27:22] AT: Yeah, I think. I don’t know.

[00:27:24] NC: I think there are other orchestra musicians listening in.

[00:27:28] AT: Hopefully the right ones.

[00:27:30] NC: Well, I mean, now are these steps – I think we kind of started by saying these are the steps to follow if you really do want to become anonymous in the orchestra. I feel like you’ve managed to turn them in a more positive direction. You could follow these steps and actually be a great orchestral player and –

[00:27:51] AT: Well, because as I understand it, there’s just no way around the anonymity being an orchestral player, but there are positive things about being in an orchestra nevertheless. I think there is a spin that you can put on it that’s like you’re toiling in relative anonymity and hopefully you’ll be rewarded –

[00:28:15] NC: In the musical afterlife.

[00:28:18] AT: Yeah. Maybe hopefully some in the current life too. Maybe even at this week’s concert?

[00:28:29] NC: This week’s repertoire is tough [inaudible 00:28:31].

[00:28:32] AT: Yeah, actually there’s no way that we’re going to step out of the lime light in this program in any good way. I mean, as we jump right in a hole or something.

[00:28:43] NC: Yeah. I think you can – Falling off the wagon will definitely get you some temporary fame or notoriety. I this week, it’s probably best to remain anonymous.

[00:28:55] AT: Yup.

[00:28:57] NC: All right. I like the twist. I like the spin you put on it. I am always struggling against the anonymity, but I think the – If you could embrace.

[00:29:05] AT: I mean, you. You’re not anonymous. Hey, when I was in the hospital, my doctor knew right away who you were.

[00:29:15] NC: Well, he knew the color of my hair.

[00:29:18] AT: But that’s very pertinent, I’m sure.

[00:29:24] NC: Well –

[00:29:26] AT: Whereas for me, he said, “I’ve never seen you.”

[00:29:29] NC: Yeah, that was kind of strange for someone who claimed to go all the time.

[00:29:33] AT: Yeah, I’m sure he’s there this week.

[00:29:38] NC: Well, then he’ll see us fulfilling our –

[00:29:40] AT: Hospital doctors anonymous here.

[00:29:42] NC: Yeah, that’s true. I wonder in other professions, do you want to remain anonymous also? I mean, for doctors, maybe the highest calling is to be that person that just save lives and nobody knows your name.

[00:29:58] AT: You’d have to ask around. I’m pretty sure some of them want to be known.

[00:30:03] NC: That’s true. Those ones like in the Pasadena 10 best list.

[00:30:09] AT: Pay $100.

[00:30:10] NC: We’ll get one of them on this show, but thank you all for joining us for these 12 steps of Orchestra Players Anonymous. If you have an orchestral experience that fits into these, I hope you’ll share it with us. Just hit us up at contact@standpartnersforlife. Actually, you could also leave it in an iTunes Review. That’s an awesome way to help your friends and colleagues find us. Just visit our show on iTunes and leave us that little rating and review. That would be fun, and you can leave your thoughts on the 12 steps too. Great to talk with you as always and can’t wait to see you back for the next episode of Stand Partners for Life.

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