Podcast #181: Windham Mountain Club President Chip Seamans

The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast

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Who

Chip Seamans, President of Windham Mountain Club, New York

Recorded on

August 12, 2024

About Windham Mountain Club

Click here for a mountain stats overview

Owned by: Majority owned by Beall Investment Partners and Kemmons Wilson Hospitality Partners, majority led by Sandy Beall

Located in: Windham, New York

Year founded: 1960

Pass affiliations:

* Ikon Pass: 7 days

* Ikon Base Pass: 5 days, holiday blackouts

Closest neighboring ski areas: Hunter (:17), Belleayre (:35), Plattekill (:48)

Base elevation: 1,500 feet

Summit elevation: 3,100 feet

Vertical drop: 1,600 feet

Skiable Acres: 285

Average annual snowfall: 100 inches

Lift count: 11 (1 six-pack, 3 high-speed quads, 1 triple, 1 double, 5 carpets – view Lift Blog’s inventory of Windham’s lift fleet)

Why I interviewed him

The Catskills are the closest thing to big-mountain skiing in my immediate orbit. Meaning the ski areas deliver respectable vertical drops, reasonably consistent snowfall, and an address reachable for first chair with a 6 to 7 a.m. departure time. The four big ski areas off I-87 – Belleayre, Plattekill, Hunter, and Windham – are a bit farther from my launchpad than the Poconos, than Mountain Creek, than Catamount or Butternut or the smaller ski areas in Connecticut. But on the right day, the Catskills mountains ski like a proto-Vermont, a sampler that settles more like a main course than an appetizer.

I’m tremendously fond of the Catskills, is my point here. And I’m not the only one. As the best skiing within three hours of New York City, this relatively small region slings outsized influence over North American ski culture. Money drives skiing, and there’s a lot of it flowing north from the five boroughs (OK maybe two of the boroughs and the suburbs, but whatever). There’s a reason that three Catskills ski areas (Belleayre, Hunter, and Windham), rock nearly as many high-speed chairlifts (nine) as the other 40-some ski areas in New York combined (12). These ski areas are cash magnets that prime the 20-million-ish metro region for adventures north to New England, west to the West, and east to Europe.

I set this particular podcast up this way because it’s too easy for Colorad-Bro or Lake Ta-Bro or Canyon Bro to look east and scoff. Of course I could focus this whole enterprise on the West, as every ski publication since the invention of snow has done. I know the skiing is better out there. Everyone does. But that doesn’t mean it’s the only skiing that matters. The Storm is plenty immersed in the West, but I can also acknowledge this reality: the West needs the East more than the East needs the West. After all, there’s plenty of good skiing out here, with a lot more options, and without the traffic hassles (not to mention the far smaller Brobot:Not Brobot ratio). And while it’s true that New England ski areas have lately benefitted from capital airdrops launched by their western overlords, a lot of that western money is just bouncing back east after being dropped off by tourists from Boston, New York, Philly, and D.C. Could Colorado have skiing without eastern tourism? Yes, but would Summit and Eagle counties be dripping with high-speed lifts and glimmering base villages without that cash funnel, or would you just have a bunch of really big Monarch Mountains?

None of which tells you much about Windham Mountain Windham Mountain Club, which I’ve featured on the podcast before. But if you want to understand, rather than simply scoff at, the New Yorkers sharing a chair with you at Deer Valley or Snowmass or Jackson, that journey starts here, in the Catskills, a waystation on many skiers’ pathway to higher altitudes.

What we talked about

Chip is the new board chairman of the National Ski Areas Association; searching for a new NSAA head; the difference between state and national ski organizations; the biggest challenge of running a ski area in New York; could New York State do more to help independent ski areas?; how the ski area’s rebrand to Windham Mountain Club “created some confusion in the market, no doubt”; the two-day weekend lift ticket minimum is dead; “our plan has always been to stay open to the public and to sell passes and tickets”; defining “premium”; what should a long liftline look like at WMC?; lift ticket and Ikon Pass redemption limits for 2024-25; the future of Windham on the Ikon Pass; rising lift ticket prices; free season passes for local students; who owns WMC, and what do they want to do with it?; defining the “club” in WMC; what club membership will cost you and whether just having the cash is enough to get you in; is Windham for NYC or for everyone?; how about a locals’ pass?; a target number of skiers on a busy day at Windham; comparing Windham to Vermont’s all-private Hermitage Club; how about the Holimont private-on-weekends-only model?; some people just want to be angry; the new owners have already plowed $70 million into the bump; snowmaking updates; a badass Cat fleet; a more or less complete lift fleet; the story behind K lift; the Windham village and changes to parking; and the dreaded gatehouse.

Why I thought that now was a good time for this interview

Rather than right now, maybe the best time for this interview would have been a year ago, or six months ago, or maybe all three. It’s been a confusing time at Windham, for skiers, for employees, for the people running the place. No one seems to understand exactly what the bump is, what it plans to be, and what it wants to be.

Which doesn’t stop anyone from having an opinion, most of them wildly misinformed. Over the past year, I’ve been told, definitively, by a Saturday liftline’s worth of casual skiers that Windham had “gone private.” The notion is pervasive, stubborn, immune to explanations or evidence to the contrary. So, very on brand for our cultural moment.

Which doesn’t mean I shouldn’t try. I’m more than willing to bang on ski areas for their faults. In Windham’s case, I’ve always thought that they groom too much, that the season is too short, that the season pass price (currently $2,000!), is beyond insane. But it’s not really fair to invent a problem and then harangue the operators about it. Windham is not a private ski area, it is not shut off from locals, it does not require a $200,000 handshake to pass through the RFID gates. Inventing a non-existent problem and then taking offense to it is a starter kit for social media virtue signaling, but it’s a poor way to conduct real life.

But honestly, what the hell is going on up there? How can Windham Mountain Club justify a larger initiation fee than Vermont’s truly private Hermitage Club for a ski experience that still involves half of Manhattan? Why is it so hard to make a weekend Ikon Pass reservation? Does anyone really go to the Catskills in search of the “rarified reality” that WMC insists it is somehow providing? What is the long-term vision here?

All fair questions, all spun from WMC’s self-inflicted PR tornado. But the answers are crystalizing, and we have them here.

What I got wrong

* I said that “Gore’s triple chair,” which was only a “12, 13-year-old lift” was going to McCauley. I was referring to the Hudson triple, a 2010 Partek (so 14 years old), which will replace nearby but much smaller McCauley’s 1973 Hall double, known as “Big Chair,” for the coming ski season.

* I said that the club fees for Windham were roughly the same as Hermitage Club. This is drastically untrue. WMC’s $200,000 initiation fee is double Hermitage Club’s $100,000 number. Windham’s annual dues, however, are much lower than HC’s $18,500.

* I said that Windham was automating its first snowmaking trail this year. That is incorrect, as Seamans points out in our conversation. Windham is installing its first automated snowmaking on the east side of the mountain this year, meaning that 40 percent of the mountain’s snowmaking system will now be automated.

* I said that Windham had a water-supply-challenge, which is not accurate. I was confusing water supply (adequate), with snowmaking system pumping capacity (room for improvement). I think I am covering too many mountains and sometimes the narratives cross. Sorry about that.

Why you should ski Windham Mountain Club

If you really want an uncrowded Catskills ski experience, you have exactly one option: go to family-owned Plattekill, 40 minutes down the road. It has less vert (1,100 feet), and half Windham’s acreage on paper, but when the glades fill in (which they often do), the place feels enormous, and you can more or less walk onto either of the mountain’s two chairlifts any day of the season.

But Plattekill doesn’t have high-speed lifts, it’s not on the Ikon Pass, and it’s not basically one turn off the thruway. Windham has and is all of those things. And so that’s where more skiers will go.

Not as many, of course, as will go to Hunter, Windham’s Vail-owned archnemesis 15 minutes away, with its unlimited Epic Pass access, Sahara-sized parking lots, and liftlines that disappear over the curvature of the Earth. And that has been Windham’s unspoken selling point for decades: Hey, at least we’re not Hunter. That’s true not only in relative crowd size, but in attitude and aesthetic; Hunter carries at least a 10:1 ratio* over Windham in number of LongIsland Bros straightlining its double-blacks in baseball caps and Jets jerseys.

In that context, Windham’s rebrand is perfectly logical – as Hunter grows ever more populist, with a bargain season pass price and no mechanism to limit visitors outside of parking lot capacity (they ski area does limit lift ticket sales, but not Epic Pass visits), the appeal of a slightly less-chaotic, more or less equally scaled option grows. That’s Windham. Or, hey, the much more exclusive sounding “Windham Mountain Club.”

And Windham is a good ski area. It’s one of the better ones in New York, actually, with two peaks and nice fall line skiing and an excellent lift system. It doesn’t sprawl like Gore or tower like Whiteface, and those fall lines do level off a bit too abruptly from the summit, but it feels big, especially when that Catskills snowbelt fires. On a weekday, it really can feel like a private ski area. And you can probably score an Ikon Pass slot without issue. So go now, before WMC jumps off that mainstream pass, and the only way in the door is a triple-digit lift ticket.

*Not an actual statistic^

^Probably though it’s accurate.

Podcast Notes

On New York having more ski areas than any other state in the country

It’s true. New York has 51. The next closest state is Michigan, with 44 (only 40 of which operated last winter). Here’s a list:

On the three New York state-owned ski areas that “have been generously funded by the state”

It’s basically impossible to have any honest conversation about any New York ski area without acknowledging the Godzilla-stomping presence of the state’s three owned ski areas: Belleayre, Gore, and Whiteface. These are all terrific ski areas, in large part because they benefit from a firehose of taxpayer money that no privately owned, for-profit ski area could ever justify. As the Adirondack Explorer reported in July:

The public authority in charge of the state’s skiing, sliding and skating facilities saw expenses and losses jump in the past year, its annual financial report shows.

The Lake Placid-based Olympic Regional Development Authority [ORDA], whose big-ticket sites are the Belleayre Mountain, Gore Mountain and Whiteface Mountain alpine centers, disclosed operating losses of $47.3 million for the last fiscal year. That compared with losses of $29.3 million for the same period a year earlier.

It’s important to acknowledge that this budget also covers a fun park’s worth of skating rinks, ski jumps, luge chutes (or whatever), and a bunch of other expensive, unprofitable crap that you need if you ever want to host an Olympics (which New York State has done twice and hopes to do again). Still, the amount of cash funneled into ORDA in recent years is incredible. As the Adirondack Explorer reported last year:

“The last six years, the total capital investment in the Olympic Authority was $552 million,” [now-fomer ORDA President and CEO Mike] Pratt told me proudly. “These are unprecedented investments in our facilities, no question about it. But the return on investment is immediate.”

Half a billion dollars is a hell of a lot of money. The vast majority of it, more than $400 million, went to projects in the Lake Placid region, home to some 20,000 year-round residents—and it turns out, that breathtaking sum is only part of the story.

Adirondack Life found New York State has actually pumped far more taxpayer dollars into ORDA since Pratt took the helm than previously reported, including a separate infusion of subsidies needed to cover the Olympic Authority’s annual operating losses. Total public spending during Pratt’s six-year tenure now tops $620 million.

… Taken together that’s more money than New York spent hosting the 1980 Winter Olympics. It’s also more money than the state committed, amid growing controversy, to help build a new NFL stadium in Buffalo, a city with a population more than 10 times that of the Lake Placid region.

There’s also no sign ORDA’s hunger for taxpayer cash will shrink anytime soon. In fact, it appears to be growing. The Olympic Authority is already slated to receive operating subsidies and capital investments next year that total another $119 million.

To put that amount in context, the entire Jay Peak Resort in Vermont sold last year for $76 million. Which means New York State’s spending on the Olympic Authority in 2024 would be enough to buy an entire new ski mountain, with tens of millions of dollars left over.

It now appears certain the total price tag for Pratt’s vision of a new, revitalized ORDA will top $1 billion. He said that’s exactly what the organization needed to finally fulfill its mission as keeper of New York’s Olympic flame.

More context: Vail resorts, which owns and operates 42 ski areas – more than a dozen of which are several times larger than Belleayre, Gore, and Whiteface combined – is allocating between $189 and $194 million for 2024 capital improvements. You can see why New York is one of the few states where Vail isn’t the Big Bad Guy. The state’s tax-paying, largely family-owned ski areas funnels 95 percent of their resentment toward ORDA, and it’s easy enough to understand why.

On New York’s “increasingly antiquated chairlift fleet”

Despite the glimmer-glammer of the lift fleets at ORDA resorts, around the Catskills, and at Holiday Valley, New York is mostly a state of family-owned ski areas whose mountains are likely worth less than the cost of even a new fixed-grip chairlift. Greek Peak’s longest chairlift is a Carlevaro-Savio double chair installed in 1963. Snow Ridge runs lifts dating to 1964, ’60, and ’58(!). Woods Valley installed its three lifts in 1964, ’73, and ’75 (owner Tim Woods told me last year that the ski area has purchased at least two used chairlifts, and hopes to install them at some future point). Intermittently open (and currently non-operational) Cockaigne’s two double chairs and T-bar date to 1965. These lifts are, of course, maintained and annually inspected, and I have no fear of riding any of them, but in the war for customers, lifts that predate human space travel do make your story a bit trickier to tell.

On Holiday Valley selling a chairlift to Catamount

I noted that a lift had moved from Holiday Valley to Catamount – that is the Catamount quad, Holiday Valley’s old Yodeler quad. Catamount installed the new lift in 2022, the year after Holiday Valley pulled out the 20-year-old, 500-vertical-foot fixed-grip lift to replace it with a new high-speed quad.

On Windham’s pass price in comparison to others

Windham’s season pass price is the eighth most expensive in America, and the most expensive in the East by an enormous amount (Windham also offers a Monday through Friday, non-holiday season pass for $750, and a Sunday through Friday, non-holiday pass for $1,300). Here’s how WMC compares nationally:

And here’s how it stacks up in the East:

On WMC’s ownership

We talk a bit about Windham’s ownership in the pod. I dug into that a bit more last year, when they bought the place in April and again when the mountain rebranded in October.

On Blackberry Farms

Lodged between Windham and New York City is a hilltop resort called Mohonk Mountain House. In its aesthetic and upscale cuisine, it resembles Blackberry Farm, the Tennessee resort owned by Windham majority owner Sandy Beall, which The New York Times describes as “built on a foundation of simple Tennessee country life as reinterpreted for guests willing to pay a premium to taste its pleasures without any of its hardships.” In other words, an incredibly expensive step into a version of nature that resembles but sidesteps its wild form. I think this is what WMC is going for, but on snow.

On the location of Windham’s tubing hill

I frankly never even realized that Windham had a tubing hill until Seamans mentioned it. Even though it’s marked on the trailmap, the complex sits across the access road, well removed from the actual ski area. Tubing is not really something I give a damn about (sorry #TubeNation), other than to acknowledge that it’s probably the reason many small ski areas can continue to exist, but I usually at least notice it if it’s there. Circled in red below:

On Hermitage Club

We talk a bit about how Hermitage Club is similar in size to Windham. The southern Vermont ski area sports a slightly smaller vertical drop (1,400 feet to Windham’s 1,600), and skiable acreage (200 to Windham’s 285). Here’s the trailmap:

On Holimont, Buffalo Ski Club, and Hunt Hollow

New York is home to three private, chairlift-served ski areas that all follow a similar business model: the general public is welcome on weekdays, but weekends and holidays are reserved for members. Holimont, right next door to Holiday Valley, is the largest and most well-known:

Hunt Hollow is smaller and less-renowned, but it’s a nice little bump (my favorite fact about HH is that the double chair – the farthest looker’s left – is Snowbird’s old Little Cloud lift):

Buffalo Ski Center is the agglomeration of three side-by-side, formerly separate ski areas: Sitzmarker Ski Club, Ski Tamarack and Buffalo Ski Club. The trail network is dense and super interesting:

On Windham in The New York Times

I referred to a feature story that The Times ran on Windham last December. Read that here.

On Vail’s pay bump

When Vail Resorts raised its minimum wage to $20 an hour in 2022, that presented a direct challenge to every competing resort, including Windham, just down the road from Vail-owned Hunter.

On Windham’s village expansion

Windham will build a new condominium village over some portion of its current parking lots. Here’s a concept drawing:

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