In the (Hubbard) Navy - An Interview with Katherine Spallino

Holy Watermelon

Katherine Spallino is the author of The Bad Cadet, a memoir of her days as a child-slave to the secretive Scientologist "Sea Org."

Before she joined the Sea Org officially, Katherine was raised away from her family in a boarding school for cursed and abandoned children, part of the last batch permitted by the Sea Org before they banned Sea Org members from having children (and naturally started encouraging abortion).

In addition to spilling some personal bits that she was forced to leave out of her book, she shares more information about the organization beyond her childhood experience, and gives us an peek at some of the stories that will be in her follow-up book about her leaving Scientology permanently.

Katherine tells us about the contradictions between public statements and internal policies, as well as the motivation behind some of the weirdest paperwork you might ever be asked to sign. As a true believer, much of the Sea Org life might seem natural, but to outsiders, it is truly shocking.

We also get some hot gossip about the Scientologists hitting headlines, like Danny Masterson, Tom Cruise, and John Travolta, as well as some who managed to get away, like Nicole Kidman and Katie Holmes (both formerly married to Tom Cruise). Katherine also gives us an answer to that great question: Where is Shelly?

All this and more....

You can WATCH this interview on YouTube.

You can also follow Katherine on Amazon, and Twitter.

Support us on Patreon or you can get our merch at Spreadshop.

Join the Community on Discord.

Learn more great religion factoids on Facebook and Instagram.

[00:00:11] Katie Dooley: Hi Preston.

[00:00:13] Preston Meyer: Ah it's another great interview episode today. Uh, we've been doing a lot of reading in preparation for this one.

[00:00:20] Katie Dooley: Yes uh, we have a fabulous author on today's episode of.

[00:00:25] Both Speakers: The Holy Watermelon Podcast.

[00:00:28] Preston Meyer: One day we'll get it in.

[00:00:31] Katie Dooley: We always try to stay in sync, but usually we're in the same room, so it's easier. But, uh. So. Yes. Welcome, Katherine.

[00:00:38] Katherine Spallino: Thank you guys so much for having me.

[00:00:41] Preston Meyer: So Katherine grew up on a secluded ranch within the Cadet Org, the Church of Scientology's Sea Org School for children. At a young age, Katherine began to journal about her day to day life, capturing the thoughts and experiences of a child coming of age in a cult. Katherine's background offers the rare opportunity to tell the story of the hundreds of children who rarely saw their parents, and were indoctrinated to become future Sea Org members. Katherine is no longer a Scientologist and lives in Minneapolis with her husband, happily raising three rambunctious boys.

[00:01:13] Katie Dooley: So very busy.

[00:01:14] Katherine Spallino: That's me.

[00:01:16] Katie Dooley: Busy. And, uh, yeah, you gotta have kids. After all that was.

[00:01:20] Katherine Spallino: Yes. Yeah, I'm living the dream. Except for I didn't realize children were so hard to raise. When you're a child, you're like, I want to have kids. It sounds so magical. And then you're raising the children and you're in the thick of it, and you're like, this is great, right?

[00:01:36] Katie Dooley: Um, and also a little bit different of, like, actually raising your children instead of a ranch.

[00:01:42] Katherine Spallino: Yes, exactly.

[00:01:43] Preston Meyer: I was always told growing up, you're gonna have kids and they're gonna be just like you. And it sounds like you were a little bit of trouble growing up, too.

[00:01:51] Katherine Spallino: Yeah. So I'm kind of getting. I'm reaping what I sowed.

[00:01:56] Katie Dooley: I loved I loved where your book ended, but it left so much to know. And I know there's a sequel coming. I'd love to figure out, you know, what eventually made you leave Scientology? And maybe a little preview of the Bad Scientologist.

[00:02:11] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, I've decided I will give a little, like spoiler, because I do think it's important for people to understand that I am not a Scientologist. And the book ends. It's it's a spoiler. So you can mute me if you want, if you are going to if anybody listening wants to get the book. But I mean, it's obvious that I'm not in Scientology, so it's not really a spoiler in a way. But I do end the book leaving how it's how I left the Sea Org. But there's a whole nother journey I have to take to leave Scientology. And that's what the, uh, my second novel will be. Because when you're in a cult, you believe something everything's so much, and they teach you to not look at outside information. So it's really hard to leave cults because they're, like, literally trained to not listen to anybody else. So what when I, I was living my best life, when I, when I had left and was living in LA supporting myself at 17 years old, like had my own apartment, out partying on the weekends like it was great. Broke all the time, so broke. But it doesn't matter. You know, I was free, but I was still a Scientologist and I had something happen where my brother, who's older, he was dying. He had a diagnosis when he was young of aplastic anemia. And I went into remission. It came back in his 20s. So they in Scientology world, if somebody's sick, somebody is made sick. So they my brother was getting sick and he was in what's called the Sea Org. The Sea Org is the people who work for the Church of Scientology. And they dedicate a billion years of their life like they work 12 hour days, very little pay. They're going to be there their whole lifetime. That's what I had left, and my brother was still in it. My mom and dad was still in it. I realized I didn't set this up for any of your listeners, and my sister was still in it. So my brother was getting sick. I was still considered a Scientologist, like I'll go to Scientology events. I wasn't really taking any services, but I wholeheartedly believed in Scientology. And I got called in to the church and they said, you're causing your brother to be sick. And they said, I'm basically evil. And that if I say one negative thing about Scientology, which I hadn't been, I would be what's called declared a suppressive person. And when they do that, it's like being excommunicated from the church, which is like so, so devastating to hear. And I had to just respect that and like, not talk to my mom and my dad and my sister. I was about to turn 21 and I had to hold it all into my chest. You can't complain about Scientology also to others. So I was holding all this information, and the person I was dating at the time, who was actually now my husband, grew up Christian, and so he was like, you don't seem like your normal bubbly self, like what's going on? And I was like, oh no, it's fine. And meanwhile I turned 21. No call for my parents because they can't talk to me. My husband said at the time, I'm never going to be a Scientologist. So whatever it is, you could tell me. And hearing that gave me the freedom to talk about it because I was like, oh, I'm not going to stop his path to join Scientology. That's literally how much I believe in Scientology. Yeah. So that gave me like the I felt comfortable enough to like, I could tell him about it because I didn't want him to not be able to join Scientology because it says something negative about it. Like I literally thought, like, Scientology is the answer to everything. But when he said he wasn't going to do it, I was like, well, I could tell him about these random people that are just like bad apples in the Church of Scientology. Like, I was still kind of I was excusing it in my mind, but hearing myself talk about it, I think, opened up like a crack in my mind. And then I started to kind of go on the internet, which you should not do if your a Scientologist. So many stories on the internet about the truth about L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, and how he made up all these lies, and then there's all the people who were in the church who had left and all their stories. So I began to read all of that, and that's how I was able to, like, educate myself enough to leave. So there's a whole journey there that still it took another couple of years, and that would be in my book. But like having how does somebody extricate themselves from a cult without losing their family? And so that's what I did and then I still managed to keep my family because I just was like able to communicate to my mom, who grew up in a Pentecostal household, like, hey, you didn't want to be a Pentecostal. You wanted to go learn for yourself, let me go learn for myself. And that was something she could relate to, so she would still visit me and so on. But then my best friend was on Leah Remini's show, and I knew about it. And the fact that I knew about it, my parents cut me off like, just like that. And then I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to write this book because I wasn't going to write it because I was like, I need to keep my family in my life. You're not allowed to talk negative about Scientology, though, and my book isn't even negative, right, about Scientology. It's just telling a story. But they would consider it negative because it does open a lot of eyes to the circumstance of all these children who were just shunted off from their Sea Org parents and raised as little adults, and not given the proper care that you would normally give a child.

[00:07:10] Katie Dooley: Yeah, absolutely. But you're right, it wasn't particularly negative. I mean, reading about the author and knowing about you. It's after doing that, you know, you've left Scientology, but other than that, it's just a great, more on what it's like growing up in... And that was the last Cadet Org because they're not allowed to have children anymore. Were you kind of the last cohort of kids?

[00:07:32] Katherine Spallino: There was like five Cadet Orgs, two in California, uh, one in Florida, one in Australia, one in England. So another thing that happened in 1985 is senior members were told you can no longer have children. So there's a high abortion rate in the Sea Org. People are forced to get rid of their babies. Some do leave and they manage to have like a backbone and they're like, no, I want to keep my baby and they leave the Sea Org. You can't be in the Sea Org with the child. So because of that, yep. Like in the late to early 2000, late 1990s, all the networks started being closed because we were 14. We're old enough, 13, we're old enough to work full-time jobs in the Sea Org now. And which is what happened to me for all the listeners. The Sea Org is like, you work really long days. So I was in a school and I did not live with my parents in the school, was at a boarding school called The Ranch and I did not. I saw my parents once every few months, and I was just treated like a little soldier and like, this is how you're going to be a Sea Org member. You're not going to be as no, you're going to be an astronaut. You're going to be a vet. You're going to be, um, a musiSea Orgn or whatever you want to be like, no, you're going to be a Sea Org member. This is your purpose. And I believed in that purpose until I was actually in the Sea Org. And I realized what that actually meant and how much everything is controlled. Your whole life is laid out in front of you, of just working in a cog in the machine of the Church of Scientology, and not being able to have your own freedom to make choices and do anything. The book tells of my journey of how I was able to be like, why? Like, do I want to save the world? Because that's what they think they're doing or do I want to just go have a life, which is really selfish when you put it next to do you want to save the world? And I decided to be selfish, basically.

[00:09:23] Katie Dooley: I mean, following your own path, though, you're probably helping a lot more people either leave Scientology or not fall into the trap that is Scientology. So, helping more now than if you had stayed in the Sea Org.

[00:09:35] Katherine Spallino: Yeah. And I don't believe the Sea Org is actually saving the world, so. But at that time I believed that. And it's a hard thing to be like told. You're like basically a loser because you don't want to help save the world. You just want to go, like, frolic around in the dangerous world, you know, they make the world seem so dangerous. You're going to get on drugs. You're going to work at Burger King flipping burgers that was like a line they would say, like, you're not going to be successful. So to take that route was like a very... Now I look back, I'm like, oh, that was really brave of me because I also didn't have my parents were in the Sea Org. It's not like I had a place to go. So we had to find a place for me to go. Relatives that were not Scientologists. And I had to just start my life over with, like.

[00:10:17] Preston Meyer: You would have made more money at Burger King, though.

[00:10:20] Katie Dooley: That's true.

[00:10:21] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, I would have made more money at Burger King than in the Sea Org. Because in the Sea Org, you get paid $50 a week before. I think they get like, really? It's like Social Security gets taken out and like a couple other. So it's like ends up being like $38 and I don't know if it's still that much, but that was in 2000. But that's how much they get paid a week. Yeah, it's like a stipend because they're a religious. Believe it or not, they're considered a religion, so you don't have to pay them. You don't have the same legal, um, obligation. Yeah. So they get paid this very little amount. And then the Sea Org members have like medical issues and they don't have they're like on Medicaid, like the church doesn't pay for their medical stuff. They use the government to pay for it. Like it's such a like it's ridiculous.

[00:11:06] Katie Dooley: So you are still an SP. The church considers you an SP. Does that mean we're SPS now too?

[00:11:13] Katherine Spallino: You are by association a suppressive person.

[00:11:16] Katie Dooley: Yeah, we've done one episode on Scientology that was pretty, um, critical. So. But I don't think anyone heard it. So.

[00:11:24] Katherine Spallino: So some of your listeners might know. But yeah, being an SP was like like growing up was like, I would never want to be declared an SP. And like, you go on what's called an E-meter, which it looks like a picture, a lie detector, and they would like be like, you just have to sit there and they'd wait for your needle. If it turns dirty, that means you've you've done something naughty that week. And I'd always be like, don't rock slam, because that means you were SP. And I was like, get evicted from the school. So I had these tricks where I would just like, think of happy thoughts and so I wouldn't get declared an SP. It's like, that would be the worst. You're going to lose everybody. But now here I am, I'm an SP and it's not so bad.

[00:12:03] Preston Meyer: I'm glad you don't think it's so bad. It's a good party to be in.

[00:12:07] Katherine Spallino: It's a good it's it's okay to be able to to not listen to people and have your own opinions.

[00:12:14] Preston Meyer: I do have one unanswered question from reading your book about the pay. You went a really long time without getting paid. Did you get back paid when you finally started getting paid? Or was it just pick up where everybody else is at?

[00:12:31] Katherine Spallino: Nope, no back pay for me. It was so unfair. Like so all of these kids would get we would get $15 a week after Social Security. And I wonder what my Social Security is, how much I have. It's like a dollar a dollar a week. But I stopped getting paid because my parents, because of I don't know why, but they never registered me when I got born, so I didn't have a social security number. So then they stopped paying me and all these other cadets are getting paid, so I couldn't buy like, uh, we would go to Walmart on the weekends to buy our hygiene supplies like shampoo, conditioner, underwear, things like that. And I was not able to buy these things for myself. And then eventually, a year or two later, they finally managed to pay me and or pay like I started to get paid again and all these, and then they're like, oh, the kids who didn't get paid because they had whatever issues that they. There were a couple other kids, but not as bad as me who had back pay. Theirs was like 50 bucks or something wasn't bad. So they got it. But they're like, yours is a lot. So we're still trying to work it out. And then I just never got it. And I was like, I don't... I'm a child. I don't know how to like, you know, advocate for myself and be like, this is unfair! But yeah. So that I'm like, I look back, I'm like, it's so unfair. And I there's a point in my book where I like, don't have shoes, I don't have a way to get shoes. And borrowing my friend's shoes. And then her mom tells her to stop lending me her shoes, and it's like, why isn't her mom, like going, hey, somebody, this kid needs shoes. Like somebody or let's buy, I'll buy her shoes, you know, like looking out for me. But there was nobody doing that.

[00:14:04] Preston Meyer: A church without a community. It's great.

[00:14:07] Katie Dooley: I was going to say at that point, like the family dynamics within the Sea Org and Cadet Org must be very fractured if mom doesn't even see a kid in need. Like. I mean, I think anyone would see a kid in need, but to be like hypersensitized to like someone else's kid needs help and you're not going to do anything. They must really break down those family bonds then.

[00:14:29] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, they really do. And they make it so it's not important. It used to be when we were younger they would have like a family day and we're like three, four and five like those pictures of me as a baby, like on a picnic blanket. And I'm like, I was like, oh, what is this? Because I didn't remember it. And my mom's like, oh, that's family day. Once a year, we would all get together on Family Day. I was like, oh, that sounds so nice. And then they stopped doing that. I don't know why. And then when they were then we had like, they have Sea Org day for the Sea Org members, but that's not for families. So the kids don't get to go to that. So it would be like Christmas. And even then sometimes the parents would have to work on Christmas. And so it was like we would see our parents so infrequently. It was like normalized to not see. And like there were a couple cadets who were only children, so their mom or dad would make an effort to come. But I think me being one of four, I don't know. But there's like there were at most cadets did not see their parents every weekend like once a week. And it was like once every couple months. And then if your parent was put on what's called the RPF, which is like the punishment group, you would see them like once a year and your parent was basically ostracized and they wear all black, live in like a crappy dorm, eat after everybody else in the Sea Org, and they I think they got like half pay. So it was like 15. Same as like a cadet, but they're adults. So that's like every like parents were so almost irrelevant to us. Like they're like, oh, that's my parent. Like I had love for my mom and dad and or my mom especially. I think it shows in my book and I still do to this day, even though she doesn't talk to me. But she was just like a person. She wasn't like somebody I can like go to for anything. It was like a person I could get a hug from.

[00:16:13] Preston Meyer: So when you leave the Sea Org, you get a bill for the things that you've theoretically consumed intellectually. Did they count what they owed you from your back pay against that, or was that...

[00:16:27] Katherine Spallino: I should have brought that up! I should have been like, oh, I have a back pay, take that off. But luckily I never paid it off because, you know, it wasn't I wasn't high on my priority list when I was 17, 18, in LA, 19, and I was just getting by to barely get gas to go to work. So I it like, ramen noodles, you know that type of situation? No health insurance. I just like living. Living the dream. Living the American dream.

[00:16:54] Katie Dooley: Oh, boy. I'm curious what the transition to. And you talk about this in your book and maybe clarify for our listeners, but Sea Org versus public member, you said you didn't do a lot of services. So what did they try to do to keep you in? Did they try to bring you back to the Sea Org? I'd like to hear about that.

[00:17:12] Katherine Spallino: So the Sea Org... it's a great question. If you're in the Sea Org your life is like all about just working. Go to bed. Courses or registration courses, like how to recruit people into the Scientology, things like that. So you have a period of the day we're doing Scientology studies, and then most of the day is dedicated to working. Whether you're a registrar, getting new people signed up or you're a course supervisor. And then which is if you are a Scientologist, you'd be going to course, that's what they call it. So when you go in and take like a college course, you can imagine, but it's like Scientology related. So you're either doing that or you're getting auditing, and the auditors will be Sea Org members. And the auditing session will be similar to a therapy session, except for it's L. Ron Hubbard type written counseling that you follow to the letter. You cannot change anything. L. Ron Hubbard is basically considered like a god, like nothing is to be questioned and they follow this. He has something called the bridge. And then the public are working their way up the bridge. And the bridge costs about $200,000 to $300,000 in the end. More because then when you're up there, they have you maintain your sessions so you audit yourself and you get like paid. You still pay like the Sea Org. So all this money, the Scientologists are the people paying the church, the Sea Org, to get these services. So when I was in the Sea Org, I did five Scientology courses to join the Sea Org, and that's what they billed me for when I left because like, that's free. That's something public would pay for, even though it's not. It was training to be a Sea Org member. Just like if you joined a company, they send you to training, they pay for it. But when you leave the company, they don't tell you to pay them back, right? Like you're getting to work for them. But in the Sea Org there's a policy letter L. Ron Hubbard wrote called freeloaders and he was concerned people were joining the Sea Org to get free services and leaving. So then that's his policy. And then to people who became like who trained to be an auditor, they left like I have cadet friends who left with 60K bills and there are 20 years old. It's not even college though. Like it's like that's enough for, you know, at least a couple of years of a good college or like a state college, you know. So eventually there was a lot of kerfuffle when so many cadets were leaving that the anyone who was underage, they canceled. I never saw it in writing, I just heard it verbally, that the dollars towards it or something, that I never paid it because they also if you had paid it, too bad, so sad. Like an adult and you leave the Sea Org you have to pay that money the for the courses back and you want to get back in the good graces. So like when I was like an ex-Sea Org member, I would go to an event like I would get like the stink eye still kind of a little bit, but I had also just like see my old cadet friends and we'd still chat and catch up and they're like, when are you going to go back on course? I'm like, oh yeah, whatever. Someday. Even though I believe in Scientology, it also wasn't enough. Like I actually didn't want to do Scientology courses, which is like says a lot. Like that's how much I think I was lucky that I didn't really believe in it in the end. Right.

[00:20:15] Katie Dooley: I have a follow up question to that. And I guess it makes sense explaining that auditors are all Sea Org members, but of like satellite churches. So we have a Church of Scientology where we are. I can't imagine there's many members. So what they get auditing at some of the you know, we're not in Florida or California, we're in Canada. Would they get auditing here? Or if they wanted auditing, would they have to travel to Florida or California?

[00:20:39] Katherine Spallino: So there are satellite places and then you're just a staff member and that is still you get a freeloader if you left. But that's only like a five-year contract. And then you're working there and you can be an auditor and you could train to be an auditor. And then if you did your five-year contract, that would be actually better if somebody wanted to be an auditor, because then you can leave and you don't have to owe any money as long as you did your five years, I think. Something like that. But that one is like, yeah, there are smaller orgs, but you only can go to a certain level in the bridge. And then if once you're at a certain point on the bridge, which is like still so much left, then you have to go to like LA or Florida where it's like the big land bases and they deliver those services with the Sea Org members. Okay. So eventually you will have to pay the big bucks.

[00:21:25] Preston Meyer: I definitely expected every contract to be a billion years.

[00:21:29] Katherine Spallino: Mhm. It's so like and if you read the contract like people Google it. It's so dramatic. It's like we are going to. Save the World. It's like Star Wars you know. And we are we totally believe it. You know.

[00:21:41] Katie Dooley: I was listening to another podcast I don't remember which one unfortunately, now. But they basically said like it's so ridiculous. It doesn't even like it doesn't hold up in court. Like nobody could contract you even for your entire lifetime. They're like, it's a ridiculous contract. So let alone a billion.

[00:21:57] Katherine Spallino: Yeah. There's like some, uh, couple lawsuits going on where people are now trying to sue and saying it's trafficking, you know, like trafficking bodies and using them and especially the children that were coerced into doing it. So if that wins, it's been a lot because Scientology has so much money. They have so many lawyers, a lot of like it's taking forever, but if that wins, that will be huge. It'll be really nice if like people are starting to protest more and more out in Hollywood. There's a whole movement going on on YouTube called SPTV, where people are telling their stories. And I think the more people know about this, we can get rid of that tax-exempt status that they have and the religious status that they have in America, because that's like all this money that could be going towards our schools and other things. Instead, it's just being kept by the Church of Scientology, and they buy these huge buildings in major cities around the world, like the Catholic Church or something. And they just they're most of them are empty, like most people when they go to these, these, uh, satellite orgs, they're you don't see anybody in them, but they're huge, massive buildings to me I'm like, are they just trying to invest their money somewhere? The funniest part is too, is like they have the local people, like, raise the money to buy the building. Like it's still like Scientology doesn't even buy those buildings. It's in their name. But the people are the church members are still paying for those buildings, even though Scientology has the money to buy those buildings.

[00:23:25] Preston Meyer: Yeah, but you can't go dipping into Big Dave's wallet. That's not okay.

[00:23:29] Katie Dooley: No, we call him slappy.

[00:23:30] Katherine Spallino: No. He's got a fly on his private jet and go hang out with some of your Scientologists. I don't know.

[00:23:35] Katie Dooley: Again, if you're a Scientologist, I can't imagine working with the man, but.

[00:23:40] Katherine Spallino: No. And like the stories you hear, I'm like, oh, I believe it though, because when I was in the Sea Org when like a high ranking Sea Org member was coming, like you're treated like a grunt, like, do this, do this. No, no backflash like, which just means no talking back. They have a whole language. And like I was there's here's a little tidbit for you. I didn't put it in the book because my book was actually when I wrote it, 150,000 words, and I had to shorten it down to 90,000. But one chapter was when I was called a tech page, which would sound really cool, but all I did, I was 13 years old. I would be bused down to LA an hour bus or like a 45 minute drive, and I would have to iron shirts for like the sea of the commanding officer of the Pack base, and I would have to, like, fetch her food. I was a little like grunt, but I and I wasn't going to school like they were just like they would rotate cadets to do this for like two weeks at a time. And it's like, that's how they treat like anybody who's an executive, they get treated like better than most people. And then on top of that, like children were being used as like little servants and like the I don't know if you guys have seen L. Ron Hubbard way with the bricks that are laid, it's like a really pretty street. There's all these bricks that make the street that you drive on. We the cadets and the RPF, the the poor souls who were put on the RPF, the Sea Org member adults and slaves making that street like they don't pay like outside companies to do these things. They use Sea Org members or children and to like get anything done.

[00:25:18] Preston Meyer: That's how you save money.

[00:25:20] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, saving a lot of money! And I like, I knew how to, like, renovate a dorm. I could, like mud walls, I could paint, I can do all this stuff. I can't anymore. It's like lost all that. I'm like, I need to hire a handyman to come and do that stuff for me.

[00:25:35] Katie Dooley: I mean, you put in your time. If you didn't want to do it, I wouldn't.

[00:25:39] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, I don't yeah, I don't like I'm not a crafty, like, handsy person. And in my book, you could tell, like, I'm not a hard worker, like, labor person. So I just.

[00:25:50] Katie Dooley: We snuck off to hide...

[00:25:53] Katherine Spallino: Yeah.

[00:25:55] Preston Meyer: Now I'm curious what other sorts of stuff didn't make the final cut of the book.

[00:26:00] Katherine Spallino: Well, another chapter which was like epic was I went horseback riding and we had horses and they were like kind of trained, um, mustangs, which was cool. And there was DWP was behind the ranch called the Department of Water and Power, and they had all this land. So we would ride our horses and they'd always say, don't ride your horses back. And of course, you know, we're kids. We decided to gallop back and we are galloping and I was on my I was on one horse that used to be it was actually an Arabian horse, but all the other horses were mustangs. And this Arabian horse used to be a barrel racer, so took really sharp turns, and she took a turn so sharp that like, kind of bumped into the other horse next to me with my friend on it, and I fell off of my horse, onto her horse on the neck, and they're still galloping. And then I fell onto the ground and the horse jumped over me like I totally could have died. And I'm like, I guess it's a cool story, but didn't need to be in the book.

[00:26:56] Preston Meyer: That's fair. That's a that's a cool story, though.

[00:26:59] Katie Dooley: Thanks for sharing. So you talked a bit about like, not going to school, that you spent two weeks looking after people. How hard was it to reintegrate into society? Like how bad was your education actually, how was the post growing up on a ranch?

[00:27:19] Katherine Spallino: It was really it was my math, especially because I would avoid doing math. And there wasn't like a lot of monitoring on what you were working on because independent study at the ranch when we did regular school. So my math was really poor, and I was put in sophomore year because I'm a August baby, and so I could have been sophomore or junior. But based on my transcript, they put me in sophomore year. And when I went to high school and there was a whole culture shock, which I'll talk about in my book, because I grew up around, a lot of Scientology's white people, so that's what I grew up around. And then the school I went to was in Florida, and it was like Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, black people, like it was like 5% white. So it was like Save the Last Dance or something. And I made friends and everything, but it was still like it was just like, whoa. And then like, going to, uh, math class was I was totally lost. I think I finished that year with like a D. It was not good, but everything else was fine because, like, I liked history. So I did study history, I liked reading, I like so because I read all the time, I was fine, like English class was a piece of cake. So yeah, I think that's. But that's because I just educated myself, you know, like, if I didn't like school, if I didn't like reading at the ranch, then I would have been very like there were illiterate people at the ranch or kids.

[00:28:40] Katie Dooley: And I guess those illiterate kids became illiterate adults, which is a scary thought. Not being able to Google Scientology, even if they wanted to Google Scientology, they wouldn't be able to.

[00:28:51] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, I think they could read like most ended up being able to read, but it would be like a struggle for them. So they're not going to read if it's a hard thing to do, right?

[00:28:59] Katie Dooley: Yeah, it's a scary thought.

[00:29:01] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, like my friend who's in the book, her name's Lacey in the book, her older brother was pretty illiterate like. Yeah. And it's funny because like, now I see him on some of the YouTube videos, he's still in the Sea Org and I'm like, poor guy thinks he's like, he's doesn't talk to my friend anymore. Like the amount of cadet friends I have who are out of the Sea Org is like all of the like most of the parents chose to disconnect from us, which is really sad. Like for nothing. Like my friend one friend just didn't want to do, she got what's called a community of evidence because she was talking negative about Scientology, and they wanted her to do all these courses. She's like, I'm not going to. So they declared her and then her parents stopped talking to her. So it's like, why can't you just live her life? And you guys could still have her in your life and she had kids. And then by association, my friend Lacey, she's the little sister. She's like, I'm not going to disconnect from my sister. So then she also got disconnected. It's that's how like, much control they have over the family dynamics. And they'll even be like a married couple. And then like, the husband will say something negative about Scientology, and the wife will write the husband up, and then the husband will get pulled in to get handled and like, get auditing, and they have to pay for this. And then if they don't want to do it, you're going to end up you, they get divorced. And then that husband's like he gets declared and now they can't talk to the kids. Like even like Danny Masterson. Apparently he's been declared now by Scientology. And now after everything after the ruling. And so it's like, wait, so now is his brother and sister not going to talk to him like, I wonder? I'm like, I want to know this. Um, but I don't have a way of knowing that. But I'm like, I was shocked that because they were standing with him this whole way through, because they had Scientology lawyers in the courtroom with him that they civil court. So the woman who he you know, I don't know if I could say the word, but yeah, him and the Church of Scientology. Because they had him. Because they covered it up. Like they're telling the woman not to use the word the R word.

[00:31:07] Katie Dooley: Um, and I know there were rumors that like, and I've seen sort of both sides of it, but like, Nicole Kidman's not allowed to talk to her kids with Tom Cruise. She's sort ofs said we're doing what's best for the kids, but I think they're actually not allowed to talk to her.

[00:31:21] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, like I think she's declared a suppressive. And I think Katie Holmes is probably declared a suppressive. It's kind of funny when you talk about, like, celebrities. It's like, it's weird that, like, this is the like when she did what she did, was she, like, kind of just disappeared and like, divorced Tom Cruise. Like, that's called a blow. Like she did it. She blew! I'm like, oh my gosh, it's so funny to see. Like she did what I did because I blew the Sea Org and I came back, but like, but in a police car that's in my book. But it's like she did it and her I think her dad's a lawyer. So then he was able to like, boom, like, shut it all down. But Tom Cruise does not see Suri I think like he just gave up full custody.

[00:32:01] Katie Dooley: Well I mean probably best for Suri. And I think that's where your book is so good because the general public hears about Scientology through the lens of celebrity, through Tom Cruise and John Travolta and Danny Masterson and celebrities already live a weird life. At the best of times so to here, like your story is very similar to Nicole Kidman's or Katie Holmes it just kind of humanizes their journeys a bit.

[00:32:27] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, and celebrities are treated really well because they're celebrities. They want to keep them promoting Scientology, but they are under the same rules. And jurisdictions are like follow like what Scientology says. So like Paul Haggis, for example, his daughter came out and is gay. And then he found out San Diego Church had signed like against gay rights. And he was like, oh, like reached out to like, a spokesperson at the time of Scientology, Tommy Davis. He's like, hey, you guys should say a statement saying, like, you don't agree with that. And he, Tommy Davis was like, no, we're not gonna do that. Because actually, L. Ron Hubbard does say homophobic stuff in his text. I think they've now finally removed it. But before they like, it was normal in year 2000 that there were homophobic slurs and like, treated them badly. But then to the Paul Haggis was mad about it. And then he saw that Paul Haggis said on CNN or one of those big shows, Good Morning America. I think that there is no disconnection policy. And the Sea Org, like blatant lie, which is there's literally a disconnection policy called disconnection policy.And he was like, whoa, I can't believe they lie like that. So like him asking questions already, like put him in a bad light. And then he went online and he was like, saw all the stuff. It's like when you go online, that's when it really happens. And even Leah Remini, right? She asks, where is Shelly Miscavige? And she got rained for it and yelled at, sent to Flag, which is the headquarters, to do auditing that she had to pay for because she dared to ask somebody where Shelly Miscavige was. So like, even though they're, like, treated really well, these celebrities, they they have to follow the same rules that all of the little grunts have to follow. So, like, even if Elisabeth Moss decided to leave Scientology, she has to do it so quietly because she doesn't want to lose her dad, who's a Scientologist, right? Like these, like Beck, who's no longer a Scientologist. Apparently he's now saying that, but like, he probably wasn't a Scientologist like 20 years ago, but that's like they all have this like fear, just like we do of losing our family.

[00:34:36] Katie Dooley: Yeah. It's a very powerful tool in cults.

[00:34:42] Preston Meyer: Do you have any guesses on where Shelley is?

[00:34:45] Katherine Spallino: My guess is this like place... They have, like, was at what's called the Pack Ranch, which is like the lower level Sea Org member kids. And then there was the INT ranch, which is for the higher-level kids. And then near there was another piece of property like in Hemet. And people say they think she's there. And like, she's just like, okay with living out her days, making amends. Because apparently what happened was she, like David Miscavige, like on a trip somewhere, and she decided to reorganize the org board, which is like, org board is like what job each member has. And when David Miscavige came back, he was really mad about it. And then put her what's on it. He basically put her on the RPF, but by herself and like with some Sea Org members watching her and like, if you believe so much in Scientology, you could be like, internalize everything and say, oh, it was my fault. I need to do conditions and like just be okay with being shunted off. Like she probably is fine where she is, like, but she's not fine like she's under a mental prison, but she thinks she's fine. Do you know what I mean? Like, my parents are okay with the fact, but are they really okay? I don't think so. That they no longer talk to me and that they're missing seeing my kids grow up? Like, I managed to talk to them a few, like, six months ago, and they were totally, like, happy to hear from me. And we chatted for a while, and then I was like, okay, well, I'm like, I would love to see you. And they're like, but wait, are you still connected to Miriam? That was who went on Leah Remini's show. And I'm like, but why does it matter? And then I'm like, also, I have to tell you, I have a book coming out, but so now you really won't see me. But they already weren't going to see me for something that was so minor, because I'm not willing to give up my friendship. Like because I'm not going to be controlled like that. But also they are willing to be controlled like that, like they could take a stand, but they can't. Do you know what I mean? Like, they're just they believe so much. They're like, it's because they also believe in reincarnation. If you have children, many lives. Okay, I'm not gonna see my daughter this life. There's always the next one, right? Like you could justify it in your. I'm just trying to. I try to, like, think in their brain and like, because I couldn't imagine doing that to my own kids because they did it to my brother, too. My brother didn't even do anything. It's just he's my brother. And he didn't even, like, know that it was happening. I had to tell him, like, just so you know, our parents and sister, we have a older sister are no longer talking to us. He's like, no, I don't believe you. I'm like, believe me. And then they, like, ignored us at Christmas time and then the next Christmas and he's like, oh, I guess they're not talking to us. I'm like, yeah.

[00:37:20] Katie Dooley: Yeah. It feels like when things come to a head, there's one of two groups, people who double down on Scientology and people who stick with their friends and family and people getting divorced, you know, some couples end up leaving together because they're not willing to lose their spouse or they get divorced.

[00:37:36] Katherine Spallino: Yeah. And I would say it's, but it's more rare for them to choose their spouse like or their baby, like if they're going to have an abortion or not. Generally they stay, and they have the abortion like they believe in it so much. And I think for myself, because I grew up the way I was, where I was already questioning things all the time, and I was curious that I was I never really fully bought it, even though I bought it like I still was a full Scientologist. Like it was easier for me to extricate myself because I think people bought it even more than I did.

[00:38:08] Katie Dooley: Yeah, yeah. I mean, when it's the only story you're told. Yes, Santa Claus or Jesus or Xenu. That's the only story, you know. Then you buy into it. But to have that curiosity is really good.

[00:38:22] Katherine Spallino: Mhm. And I think I'm just, I like luckily I had that personality. I think it's just a personality trait that I had. And so that like pushed through and, and it was never able to be suppressed by Scientology or the Sea Org. I'm like grateful for it now. I'm like wow. I'm like so glad I was such a annoying teenager and annoying everybody. I wasn't even bad though, right? Like, I was just like a teenager, you know, and but in a very controlled environment, which is why they would be upset. Like, they don't want me to be loud. They don't want to be wrestling with boys in the hallway, not like naked or anything, but like being silly with boys, flirting with boys. And that's like was my main concern at 15 years old was boys and having fun and realizing the Sea Org is not fun.

[00:39:09] Katie Dooley: I mean, yeah, I don't blame you.

[00:39:11] Katherine Spallino: Yeah. And honestly, there were following when I left because I was one of the first. It was like one other cadet before me like for my age group. Like over that year, like they started trickling out. And by the time I got back to LA when I was 17 and we were just like hanging out and it was really fun. But also like, nobody, we're all just like doing our best. And we were I mean, it was I'd say it was fine because we had so much freedom, you know, like we never experienced that before, to have our nights and weekends to ourselves, to do whatever we wanted.

[00:39:44] Katie Dooley: That's a lot of fun. And those are the ranchers you dedicated your book to, I presume?

[00:39:48] Katherine Spallino: Yeah. And we have like that. Yeah. Our sense of humor and like how we talk. Yeah, exactly. Dedicated to them. And I have some girlfriends. So on my Instagram page, people can scroll through @TheBadCadet, and you could see photos from the ranch and the people, and then you could see the people who I still hang out with to this day and that we're really close, like we see each other every year. So, as bad as like my childhood technically was. I also got a lot of good out of it because of how little we were supervised. We were so close, like me and my girlfriends and even the guys. Like when I see the guys like, it's like brother-sister camaraderie. Like we joke around and it's so that part is something special. So I'm like, okay, like, I could take some of the good from that too.

[00:40:33] Preston Meyer: Absolutely. So what can you tell us about your work in the Sea Org, specifically around trying to bring back wayward Scientologists?

[00:40:43] Katherine Spallino: Well, like, I was my first job. My post, that's what it's called. I was 15 years old, I was titled, my title was Rudiments Registrar. And you would have I would have to call disaffected Scientologists or people who hadn't been in services and try to persuade them to come in. And then sometimes they'd send us out in a car to their house and unannounced and try to convince them to come in. But the amount of people I would call who would scream at me and hang up on me because they were basically being harassed and stalked and I was only 15. And I'm like, why do so many people hate Scientology? I'm like, red flag. So that was my first job. And for like being for anybody when they're like start to slowly leave, either they're smart about it and they don't tell people so that they could just slowly leave and exit. Or if they do tell people, then they're going to get pulled in and get auditing and you might get re-indoctrinated from that auditing and then you're just kind of back in again. So people do have doubts sometimes even for the Sea Org they want to leave. And then I show that in my book. And then they change their mind because they get auditing and they go back in the Sea Org and they stay on post. That one friend of mine, towards the end of my book, who decides to rejoin the two of them, rejoin the Sea Org. They ended up leaving eventually, so yay!

[00:42:02] Preston Meyer: That is good news.

[00:42:05] Katie Dooley: Just a quick anecdote. When I did my first year of religious studies in university, one of our assignments was to go to a service that wasn't one that we belonged to. And my teacher was like, do not go to Scientology. He's like, they will never stop calling you. He's like, go pick any other one. He's like, they will harass you forever if you go.

[00:42:25] Katherine Spallino: And you'll get their mail. Forever. They keep all the records.

[00:42:31] Preston Meyer: Yeah. I saw a letter posted to Reddit just a couple of days ago, actually, after I read your book. But while planning for this, that a guy had bought a copy of Dianetics back in 1990, and then the church never heard from him again. And he got a letter just before Christmas, like weeks ago saying, hey, you bought a book in 1990. Do you want to talk about it? No.

[00:42:58] Katherine Spallino: He was like, wow, I still have my information. Yep. It's in the central files. I'm sure it's all been scanned now. Back then it was paper. But yeah, that's where that's also one of my jobs when I was in the Sea Org, was working in the central files and getting all the addresses and stuff. My mom was a letter registrar, and she would write letters to people inviting them to come out to the church. That was all she did all day. How boring is that? To write letters nonstop. That's... Most jobs are like, you know, there's several different things happening.

[00:43:32] Katie Dooley: I mean, Scientology isn't a big organization. When we did our episode, the numbers were like 60,000 worldwide. Like, it's not a huge group of people. So to keep Sea Org members busy and yeah, there's probably a lot more Sea Org members than there is jobs for them. But there's also the cult tactic of keeping them mindlessly busy.

[00:43:56] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, they definitely keep them mindlessly busy. Like it's I don't know what's happening. I think that was one of your questions. Like, I feel like there's no way they're getting new members, but yet somehow they're still existing. And like, especially if you watch like, TikTok, there's like all these people now protesting all the testing centers. That's where they try to recruit new people and they're like, it's a cult. Don't go in there. It's like, but it's all over, like the news, just like the negative aspects of Scientology. And then the members can't have kids. Now, Scientologists could still have kids. So there is still those younger kids growing up in it, but I don't know. We'll see what happens. I'm very curious. I do feel like it's I don't know what's going to happen.

[00:44:44] Katie Dooley: Especially after like. Yeah. So very committed members aren't having kids. There's a lot of bad press. But I also wonder what happens after David Miscavige and Tom Cruise are no longer... Once they pass away, because L Ron Hubbard didn't have a succession plan, which is how David Miscavige got in there. And then Tom being the right-hand man and a celebrity, I don't know, I feel like there's no even draw after that.

[00:45:09] Katherine Spallino: It would be like I so he has such a monopoly and like he's made it so it's a dictatorship. It would be amazing if he just, like, stepped down if we got sued and had to go to jail for something, you know? And then they could be a board of directors and then it could and like, calm down. Like, honestly, even though I believe all the stuff that I told you does most of it is bullshit. There is some helpful self-help stuff at the beginning of joining Scientology, which is what draws people in, like how to communicate or how to have a better marriage like L. Ron Hubbard just pulled from different like psychology and like Buddhism and things like that about how to be. It's like self-help. At the beginning of Scientology, but then after that, most of it's crap, right? And like, but if people like that crap and they feel good about it, fine. I don't really care. But stop this family control of like breaking up families, controlling how people think. Like I would if a different group of people took over Scientology and they were more lenient about it and like chill, and they didn't have a tax-exempt status too it was more of like a corporate self-help group. Cool. Like that's fine. Like that's what you are then. But like and like that you're being more honest and transparent. But to be a church when it's not really church, there's no deity, there's no god. And it's you have to follow all these rules or you get excommunicated, and then they don't pay any tax dollars on top of it, and it costs a lot of money. That's the part that really, like ticks me off, you know? They have money for lawyers, right? And they sue the crap out of everybody.

[00:46:41] Katie Dooley: Wait, so you're telling me Earth isn't the prison planet?

[00:46:45] Katherine Spallino: No. And that's like the funniest part too, is like, that would suck. Like, if you get all the way to OT3, which is what you find out about the aliens, remember? Like guys listening, like, if you're paying all this money and now everybody you know around you is a Scientologist and you're so in that life, and then you find out about the aliens, you know, you gotta accept it at that point, right? You're kind of screwed otherwise. So it's like I've heard my dad... is on OT three. Oh, it's okay. I was just gonna say my dad's on OT3 and he's never moved past it because I think he's he's probably like, oh God. Now I what else is out after that? That's my theory. He wouldn't agree to that.

[00:47:23] Katie Dooley: And I've heard some prominent Scientologists I forget one. He was like David Miscavige's right-hand man. And then I think even Leah Remini said, like when they hit OT three, they were kind of like, what the fuck is this? And but.

[00:47:38] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, it's like... Yeah, and now you have to believe it. And then when it's implanted in you, so then you have to get rid of the aliens by you audit yourself which would like, you like tell these I don't know what the process is you know, like go a little psychotic if you think things are living inside you. Like, I feel like that process would be not good.

[00:48:04] Katie Dooley: Actually, here's a good question. It's not on our list. And we've talked about this before. Do you think? David Miscavige and Tom Cruise, believe it or does Scientology just give them power?

[00:48:17] Katherine Spallino: I actually think that for sure. I think Tom Cruise for sure believes it, like you see it in his eyes. It's like they're like, he's so into it. David Miscavige, I don't know. Sorry. I have to plug in my laptop, but I'm still talking. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like he uses it for his own advantages, but I think he does believe it, I don't know. And I don't know. I mean, L. Ron Hubbard I think he did try to make money, but I think he also believed in himself like he not he thought he was a genius and had the right to make up all this stuff and he's a narcissist or like somebody who's like, oh, I'm helping everybody by making them pay all this money. You know, I don't know.

[00:49:06] Katie Dooley: Yeah, I believe that L. Ron Hubbard was a narcissist, for sure.

[00:49:10] Preston Meyer: That's pretty easy to believe. I'm on board.

[00:49:14] Katherine Spallino: Yeah.

[00:49:16] Preston Meyer: So after leaving the Sea Org and subsequently leaving Scientology altogether, what does spirituality look like for you?

[00:49:25] Katherine Spallino: It's challenging, like, to believe anything anymore. So my kids do go to choir at a Christian, liberal Christian church just down the street from our house. We walk to it, and that's a good church. I like what they say and in the sermons. So I only go to the church itself when the boys are singing in choir, when any of the boys are. But I personally have a hard time, like when I hear we are all sinners. When they say that part in church, I'm like, I don't like that. And my husband's like. I think it's more along the lines of like, we make mistakes, forgive, like, God will forgive you. I'm like, well, that's nicer. Can you make sure our boys know that? You know, I just I'm still I hope I didn't offend any Christian listeners. I'm just it's hard for me to like I didn't grow up with Jesus and God and all of that, so. But I want my kids to. I do want them to have, like, a sense of morality and like a community and more people talk about being kind to each other. So I do think there's good of being in a church community that's like not a controlling church. Which is what we have. I hope that answers. Yeah. If they start controlling things I'll be like, oh I'm out.

[00:50:41] Katie Dooley: You probably have a pretty sensitive radar for that.

[00:50:44] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, I think so.

[00:50:46] Preston Meyer: Have you ever reconnected with your sister? You mentioned her twice. That you got to see her in passing in your book. Do you ever get more than that?

[00:50:55] Katherine Spallino: Well, she was in the Sea Org at the same time as me. So we just pass each other in the hallway and say hello. And then Christmas Day was always just like we'd all open presents together. Like somewhere random, like on the sidewalk, on a bench, because we don't have a house. And then and you can't go to each other's dorms. Sometimes we go in my parents room, but it's tiny. And then we would go out to eat, like at the Glendale Galleria in Glendale and then go to a movie like that was like our family day. And she would be there. Um, and then once I left the Sea Org, my sister would come visit once a year, which was really nice. And that was actually when we really got to get to know each other. And my mom and dad would come. And when I had twins seven years ago and they came for like two weeks, which is like crazy long for a Sea Org member. So it was like a week and a half at least I had to beg them to do it because I had read all these. I was like intimidated about having twins, and I had a three-year-old and I was like, everybody says, parents help out, you need to come. And I was able to like put like, it looks bad if you don't come. It looks bad on the church. So then I think they wanted to come, but also it's hard to leave. But if they write their what's called a CSW, which is a request in a way that's like sent the, uh, Katherine's family won't understand if we don't come. So we need to come. So it looks like we care, basically. So that was how I got them to come. But it did mean a lot to me. And it was really sweet. And that was the last time I got to see them. And I didn't know that, because then by the following fall was when the fallout came from Leah Remini's show. Um, and then they stopped talking to me and my sister, too. And I had always hoped, I'm like, my parents won't be those parents. Like, I hope that they'll like, you know, I don't know what was I thinking? I was naive, but then they did it. They pulled the plug and that was a lot to deal with.

[00:52:44] Katie Dooley: Uh, your sister was promoted very quickly, I guess, like in your book, you talk about she was above your parents. What would have caused that? And that just feels really icky to me.

[00:52:57] Preston Meyer: Yeah, I was I was worried for her when I read that.

[00:53:00] Katie Dooley: I was worried for her safety.

[00:53:02] Katherine Spallino: I never even thought of it that way. But there is a thing with the Commodore Messenger's office, which is called CMO, where they like young children to be in charge of adults. It's super weird. It's like all of CMO is young, most of them pretty girls and pretty boys too, or attractive boys. And it's like modelled after because L. Ron Hubbard, when he was on the Sea Org, was named the Sea Org because it used to be on a ship, because they would avoid the he didn't want to be taxed. It all comes down to money. So he was out on an ocean and he had CMO Commodore messengers and they were all children. There was Sea Org members kids like cadets, and they were called the Commodore Messengers, and they would fetch him things, do all these things for him. And then they were kind of like middle management still, even though there were children. So then in the sea, like when it moved to land, I think that tradition just continued. And they would always just have young, young girls and boys, 13, 14, 15 who are bossing around. Or they go around and they check on progress reports and check on how everybody's doing and make sure they're all following their targets. And that's and so my sister was there for a while, but it is interesting because then when she was older, 21, 22, she somehow she left. I wonder if they age out and they say that. But I'm like, because now she just works in like the production part of the Sea Org where they make all the books called Bridge Publications. So she's like doing that.

[00:54:29] Katie Dooley: And she has 13-year-olds checking in on her. Yeah, that's, uh. That's weird L. Ron.

[00:54:39] Katherine Spallino: Yeah. And I actually, it's funny that you said that because I never really considered the fact that, like, was it an ageist thing, like, they liked them to be young and then them is I'm just realizing like. And then when she got old. Old as in, like, it's so weird.

[00:54:56] Katie Dooley: I mean, there's a policy for it somewhere written down.

[00:54:59] Katherine Spallino: yeah. There are like hidden policies, apparently, that some people don't read. I mean, which makes sense just because like, half of the bridge is secret, that's what people don't understand is like, people in Scientology and the Sea Org don't know about the aliens. Aliens, like my mom is not at that level. So she doesn't know about the aliens. Like my dad won't tell her because she's not ready to know, you know?

[00:55:19] Katie Dooley: Because it'll melt your brain if you find out.

[00:55:21] Preston Meyer: And you could die.

[00:55:22] Katie Dooley: You could die

[00:55:23] Katherine Spallino: You could die.

[00:55:25] Katie Dooley: We had to put the death warning on this episode, including a trigger warning. You're gonna hear what OT3 is, it might melt your brain.

[00:55:36] Katherine Spallino: Exactly. You should put that disclaimer that would get some listeners. They'd be like, what? What is it? I want to melt my brain.

[00:55:41] Katie Dooley: I want my brain melted! .

[00:55:44] Preston Meyer: I'm curious. Did you. How far along in this bridge did you get Katherine?

[00:55:49] Katherine Spallino: Um, nowhere. Okay. I'm on the bridge to nowhere. Yeah, because I was too busy, like, not going on course. And even then, because they were doing Sea Org courses, so I was just doing more training. Like, they actually a lot of members are not high up the bridge. They're all low down because they're using the auditors to audit paying public. Why would they audit you. Like why would they? They only do an auditing if they're like, call them PTS when they have a suppressive Person making them PTS like that, then they'll do audit as a Sea Org member, but they don't really provide auditing for Sea Org members.

[00:56:24] Katie Dooley: And I mean, you even mentioned in your book your parents bought you some auditing because you were just the worst, apparently. Um, yeah. And then they had to pool money together with your brother. So, like, your Sea Org members don't even make enough money to pay for auditing.

[00:56:39] Katherine Spallino: Yeah. And they and technically, the auditing should be provided by the Sea Org. And yet there they are paying. And like the same thing. Like they would have new releases all the time and it's called like they had like books will come out and my mom will buy them. I'm like, why? Like you have them in the library at the org. She's like, I just want to have my own copy. But it's like this. Like, I don't know. They like, enjoy putting their money back into the or into the church or into the org. It's very.

[00:57:08] Preston Meyer: How do you identify the real believers?

[00:57:11] Katherine Spallino: Exactly? Like they're like we're showing how much I care,

[00:57:14] Katie Dooley: But I mean, unless you're rebellious, I don't think anyone cares how much you care. You know, it sounds like the most devoted members get completely ignored.

[00:57:25] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, yeah. But like even like how... aad there's definitely a money element. Like the more money you make and give to Scientology, the more you're you're revered. So like, I definitely was like, when I leave the Sea Org, I'm going to make all this money and like, give it back to the church and like, donate it all so that people are nice to me. So, like, Tom cruise is revered like he even though he, he and he probably has no restrictions because he's best friends with David Miscavige, like David Miscavige was his best man. So he's living his best life. He's basically gets to live like a god, right? Like you're already when you're a movie star, everything's done for you. But you do have some accountability. Like you got to treat your employees, hopefully halfway decent. Like in his case, there's no accountability because they're all most of them are all Sea Org members or Scientologists who are all like, you have to just like say yes, yes, yes. There is no, no for Tom cruise, you know? Live that way.

[00:58:24] Katie Dooley: Yeah. Everyone needs to be told no.

[00:58:26] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, I don't think I doubt he's ever told no.

[00:58:31] Katie Dooley: Yeah. I can't imagine who would be that brave. Yeah. But, I mean, maybe a director. Do it again, Tom. That's probably close to a no as they get, but...

[00:58:46] Preston Meyer: Well see Tom's a producer and most of his movies, too,

[00:58:48] Katie Dooley: I guess so now. Yeah.

[00:58:50] Preston Meyer: He has authority over directors, too. Yeah.

[00:58:53] Katherine Spallino: Oh, yeah. Good point. I haven't even watched the most recent Mission Impossible out of, like, just like I was like, I'm not going to watch this movie.

[00:59:02] Katie Dooley: I, I don't disagree with you. I don't think we should give any more attention than he already gets.

[00:59:08] Preston Meyer: If you're curious, pirate the movie. That way he doesn't get any financial credit for it.

[00:59:14] Katherine Spallino: Yeah. Well, now it's on Paramount Plus, so I'm like, maybe I'll watch it. But like on if my kids want to, you know, but like, yeah, I wasn't going to go to the theater. That's what I mean. Yeah. Right. And same with like Elisabeth Moss. I'm like I did end up watching The Handmaid's Tale, but how much of a contradiction is that to like she's in a show that's very similar to Scientology except for like the making, the having the, you know, the part where you have to I'm trying to use the word procreate, like all the women have to procreate. Right? But the same idea of the cult part is like is very similar to the Sea Org. And then she's just like da da da.

[00:59:57] Preston Meyer: What do you think the chances are? She sees the irony?

[01:00:01] Katherine Spallino: I don't think she does. I think she's just like, that's so different. And also she's not in the Sea Org. So I think if you're a Scientologist, it's easier to in a lot of ways. So you could be blind to a lot of things and especially. Yeah.

[01:00:16] Katie Dooley: Yeah, I think...

[01:00:17] Katherine Spallino: I think if you're in a Sea Org it's a lot more intense. Yeah.

[01:00:20] Katie Dooley: Yeah. So tell me if I'm wrong, Katherine. But I think public members probably don't see a lot of the abuses that go on behind the scenes. I, I know a lady, uh, we met locally in the business community here, and she said she's a Scientologist, and I'm like. Clearly you haven't done any googling, but like if all you do is go to, you know, the Church of Scientology building and do some courses, then yeah, it probably doesn't seem that bad.

[01:00:46] Katherine Spallino: I was going to say, like in every Scientologist is told to not listen to the people on the internet and they're all liars, media's liar. So like, they're like, oh, whatever. They just ignore it. Just like even like people now, right? If you believe in a certain political, political candidate, you don't care about all the other negative stuff people say they're like, those are all lies, right? Like people could believe are very easily persuaded to not look at both sides.

[01:01:13] Preston Meyer: Yeah, what does, um, the promotion for the Sea Org look like to the public church? Is there any praise for the organization, any push to get people to join it?

[01:01:25] Katherine Spallino: Uh, yeah. And they tend they, but they tend to target the younger kids. So like 16, 17 I think. I don't know if it's true or not. I heard that they switched it to just 18-year-olds, but I don't know if that's true. But it's easier to persuade somebody who's really young. So 18, 19, 20 who they don't even have their brain fully developed to make these like lifelong choices, especially if they're a little lost and then be like, hey, like, here's something that's really worth fighting for. You're going to save the world. You have a good purpose. And if they're like just kind of floating, it's like, oh, that's great. Like now this is all taken care of for me. You can make my choices. I'm going [01:02:01] to be saving the world. [01:02:02] This is a lot easier way to live for me. And they might stay forever. Or eventually they might be like, oh God, what did I what did I set myself up for? And it's easier for a Scientologist to leave the Sea Org. It's still hard. Like you have to get a confessional called a sec check and leave. But if you are back in the day like the cadets, it was harder for us because they didn't want to create a like. It's like a issue to find a place for us to stay. Where are we going to go? So they would take forever to get it to let us leave the Sea Org.

[01:02:32] Katie Dooley: Yeah, because childcare. You're 15. You can't live on your own yet. Not that you weren't already looking after yourselves, but.

[01:02:45] Preston Meyer: Yeah it's pretty wild stuff.

[01:02:47] Katherine Spallino: Mhm. Yeah. Sometimes I'm like people like I can't believe you grew up like that. I'm like no but it's like I'm fine, I don't know. It's like it's just like. And I get that it is all very strange and weird, but I'm like, I turned out okay, like I don't hold.

[01:03:03] Katie Dooley: It's your normal. It's your normal. You didn't know anything.

[01:03:07] Katherine Spallino: And I think writing the book or processing it and thinking about it like I just don't hold a lot of like, anger about it. And yeah, it was my normal at the time. I didn't know anything different.

[01:03:17] Preston Meyer: So the next book, The Bad Scientologist, basically a sequel to The Bad Cadet, is going to follow the same memoir format?

[01:03:25] Katherine Spallino: Yeah, I'll follow the same memoir format. And, uh, yeah, hopefully next couple of years here. I know it's a while down the road, but yeah, it takes a while to write a book.

[01:03:37] Preston Meyer: That it does.

[01:03:39] Katie Dooley: Well, we love to have you back on when that time comes. Do you want to?

[01:03:43] Katherine Spallino: Yes, absolutely.

[01:03:44] Katie Dooley: You can promote your existing book a little bit.

[01:03:48] Katherine Spallino: Sure. Well, if anybody's interested, it looks like this. If this goes on YouTube, I don't know if my video is even working on your end, but on my end, I'm frozen. Okay? And, uh, I have an audible coming out version of it coming out, hopefully, it's in. It's submitted for approval, so hopefully in the next week or so. So if anybody just likes to listen to books, I'm the one narrating. So that's if you didn't find my voice too annoying today. That's an option as well. And then I'm on Instagram and I'm on Facebook @TheBadCadet. If and if you want to reach out in my DMs, I do chat with people if they have more questions. I'm also on, I have a YouTube channel that I have not done much with. I have like two videos on there. If you're a YouTube person called, I think it's under also the Bad Cadet or Katherine Spallino.

[01:04:36] Katie Dooley: Awesome. Thank you so much.

[01:04:38] Katherine Spallino: Thank you guys. Thanks for interviewing with me.

[01:04:40] Katie Dooley: Absolutely. This was super informative.

[01:04:43] Katherine Spallino: Yeah. I'm glad. I'm really glad. I hope that people are getting an idea of what it's like in the Sea Org and Scientology.

[01:04:52] Katie Dooley: Bad.

[01:04:55] Preston Meyer: That's the short answer.

[01:04:56] Katie Dooley: Yeah. Uh, Preston, do you want to do all of our promo?

[01:05:01] Preston Meyer: Yeah, we've got Facebook and Instagram. We're going to have all the links in the show notes, not just for ourselves, but also for Katherine and The Bad Cadet. Um, we're on YouTube and we've got our Patreon, where we hope to get a little bit of money from those of those people who are interested in getting a little bit more from us. And of course, we've got merch. I'm repping my shirt. Peace be with you. What else am I forgetting? Discord. Great for conversations.

[01:05:29] Katie Dooley: If you donate to our Patreon, you'll get to go up the bridge of the Holy Watermelon. This episode only. All right. Thanks so much, everyone.

[01:05:41] Both Speakers: Peace be with you.